Handmade vs. Machine

[Milan]

Handmade pipes are considerably more expensive than machine made pipes (in most cases). I have a number of both, but have not had the money recently to spend on pipes. Just affording tobacco is becoming daunting with the current status of the economy. I have a couple handmade pipes that cost hundreds of dollars that smoke hot and wet. While at the same time all of my machine made pipes smoke dry and most smoke fairly cool (they all cost under a hundred dollars). I guess what I'm trying to get at is... Are handmade pipes worth the extra money (I'm talking strictly function and quality. Obviously... namesake, design, collectibility, etc... all play a role)? There seems to be a nice selection of machine made pipes available at a fraction of the cost that smoke as good or better than handmade pipes. Sometimes a brand or name and how the pipe was made is important, but it seems more of a popularity type thing than an issue of quality? I find it hard to spend $200 to $300 or more on a handmade pipe and it end up being a pipe that you love less than a $60 machine made pipe.

Do you prefer handmade, machine, or both? Why?

 

[Dutch]

Both my Savinelli's smoke great, however I prefer a pipe with a little more size, and those tend to cost more than machine made pipes. I think there is definitely a point of diminishing returns when discussing size and price.

For the money invested, I think Boswell's are exceptional pipes. If you notice they are priced low enough new, that they have very little depreciation when taken care of and maintained properly.

 

[Hermit]

Do you prefer handmade, machine, or both? Why?

Both.
There's nothing wrong with machine made pipes.
I love my Stanwells, Savinellis, Petersons, etc.
But I certainly prefer my hand made pipes.
They're prettier. :lol:
There's also just something about a creation
made by an artisan's own hands.
Above about $150, yer payin' for a work of art.

 

[Sasquatch]

I suspect handmades that smoke hot and wet would be the exception rather than the rule - all the makers I know are scrupulously dedicated to airway geometry and briar quality.

There are "handmade" pipes that basically are made at factory speed, the single difference in production being that the bowl isn't frazed on a copying machine. The resulting pipes vary in quality.

To me, the big difference between a good handmade and a factory pipe is that little tweaks in the stem shape offer greater comfort in the teeth and better balance overall, and this makes for a pipe I reach for more often. Factory pipes are pretty often approximations of "just right" = when they are "good enough" they get shipped. A good handmade isn't an approximation. It's just right or it doesn't get sold.

Can a factory pipe smoke as well? Yeah. But I've never seen a Peterson or a Savinelli with a stem cut as well as a Ser Jacopo or a Radice. And if you go "up" from there, to the single-artisan made pipes, I think you get something even better, as long as you and the maker communicate well about what you want.

I'd rather have 1 excellent Radice than 2 Petersons.

 

[Frost]

You are not likely to find a sub $100 "factory" pipe with a bit like a rad davis.

Following the grain on the briar, smoothing and/or tapering/flaring out the airway as it transitions from bowl to shank to stem to bit, minimizing the gap in the mortise/tenon junction thingy, taking the time to make the grain really pop out of the contrast finish. These are little things you aren't likely to find in a sub-$100 pipe. Sometimes very subtle differences, even invisible if you aren't looking for them.

As to whether or not they are worth the extra price, that's just a personal decision. :cheers:

 

[puros_bran]

Pure marketing...

All pipes are hand made... All pipes are machine made.
We like to play semantics.

Sas.. How many machines are involved in your pipes, from start to finish
conversely how many hands touch a Peterson or even a lowly Kaywoodie before its out the door?

The number of pipes produced has little to do with quality. By current definition Castello and Dunhill are "factory" pipes, "machine made", etc..
Pb's whittled briarworks by current definition is a one off handcarved..
Which one would you prefer?

Quality is quality.

 

[Sasquatch]

Puros, you're right, of course - the idea of a pipe being "handmade" as opposed to made magically by robots in some giant dust-free facility is wrong. All pipes are hand worked to some degree. All pipes are machined to some degree.

But there's a drastic difference in someone taking a stummel out of the box of 500 shape X stummels, putting a stem in it (from the box of 500 identical stems) and sending it to the next "station" for bending and polishing, than where a guy is taking a measurement of the mortise depth, cutting a tenon to FIT that depth, making sure the drilling is dead on for the airway, etc. Building one specific pipe to a tight tolerance, in other words.

I'm not saying you can't get a good Peterson. I've got a Peterson that's an amazing pipe. But you can also find Petersons that don't hardly pass any air because they are drilled so poorly.

Something being hand-made doesn't make it valuable or a good pipe. But a pipe that is "handmade" (or rather made carefully on the machines in someone's shop) by a pipemaker that knows what he is doing is going to be a better all-around pipe than what most assembly-line type pipes are - because the materials are better and the workmanship is better.

Naturally, I have a vested interest in saying such things, as a guy who makes and sells pipes. But I have lots of pipes from lots of brands, have studied how they are/were made, and have tried to take the good from them and leave the bad. It's just plain wrong to say that Peterson's fishtail buttons are as good as Ser Jacopo's. They aren't. Unless you are an elephant. But to do what Ser Jac does takes time and skill, and Pete isn't putting that into the run-of-the-mill pipes, and nor do you pay for it - fair's fair!

How come nobody ever gets on a pipe forum and says "This Rad Davis I bought is a crappy smoker and uncomfortable to boot." Because Rad knows what he's doing and makes a good pipe. Not as good as mine, but pretty good nonetheless. :lol:

 

[Rad Davis]

P

Because Rad knows what he's doing and makes a good pipe. Not as good as mine, but pretty good nonetheless. :lol:

One of these days, with a lot of hard work, I'll get there. You just wait and see.

Rad

 

[puros_bran]

I like Rad.. I like you.. I like almost all the carvers I've had the pleasure of communicating with... But the difference isn't that you never carve a "bad pipe".. Its that you have better "quality control".

 

[Rad Davis]

I like Rad.. I like you.. I like almost all the carvers I've had the pleasure of communicating with... But the difference isn't that you never carve a "bad pipe".. Its that you have better "quality control".

Bingo!

Rad

 

[Sasquatch]

I like Rad.. I like you.. I like almost all the carvers I've had the pleasure of communicating with... But the difference isn't that you never carve a "bad pipe".. Its that you have better "quality control".

Really? You like Rad?




That's very unusual.



:tongue:

 

[LL]

Pure marketing...

All pipes are hand made... All pipes are machine made.
We like to play semantics.

Sas.. How many machines are involved in your pipes, from start to finish
conversely how many hands touch a Peterson or even a lowly Kaywoodie before its out the door?

The number of pipes produced has little to do with quality. By current definition Castello and Dunhill are "factory" pipes, "machine made", etc..
Pb's whittled briarworks by current definition is a one off handcarved..
Which one would you prefer?

Quality is quality.

Absolutely this. ^^^^ End of story.

(But because the Net needs grist for its forum-mill, the subject will never die.) :lol:

 

[LL]

How come nobody ever gets on a pipe forum and says "This Rad Davis I bought is a crappy smoker and uncomfortable to boot."

OK, here you go:

"This Rad Davis I bought is a crappy smoker and uncomfortable to boot."

It doesn't happen to be true---both of my Radneys smoke great and are extremely comfortable---but at least now it has been officially said on a pipe forum.

:cheers:

 

[Sasquatch]

Okay so let's ditch the idea that there's machine made pipes and handmade pipes and say instead that there's pipes which are made in high-production environments, where the stummels are frazed out and the rest of the pipe "pieced together", and the result is a few hundred pipes a day, and facilities where the production is one-off pieces, like Ser Jacopo and Castello maybe, and then there are single-artisan shops where you get one guys name (or two in the case of S. Bang) on the pipe.

Any PARTICULAR pipe will smoke as well as the following features dictate: Briar quality, airway construction, stem construction (internal).

The pipe will look/feel a certain way dicted by: finish, stem material and quality thereof, balance (shaping), and particulars of how the stem is cut (external).

My contention is simply that by and large in the case of single-artisan shops, you are going to get more of the things that make a pipe "good" then you will out of a giant producer like Savinelli or Peterson, on any given pipe.

I looked at 30 Petersons a couple weeks ago. Most had flaws ranging from silverwork that was falling off to misdrilled bowls, or carbon pre-coat filling the airay (or in one case the stem - how weird is that). Stems were unwieldly, and bent at almost random angles - identical stummels receiving differently bent stems. I was really disappointed. I went in there thinking I'd buy a year pipe. I didn't.

So yes - what we are talking about it quality control rather than method. This does not mean that every pipe cut by every Artisan is "better" in every way - it's conceivable that someone prefers Rad's button to mine, for example, or the other way around. I have one customer who likes a custom-tailored P-lip on his pipes.

To address the OP: If I bought a Rad Davis and found it to be a hot wet smoker, I'd seriously reconsider my smoking technique. (Other brands I cannot speak for, and I'm only speaking for Rad because he pays me $1.50 every time I mention his name here. ) I suspect that there is something "fixable" in the under-performing pipes, and a guy like LL could get them to kick ass.

 

[LL]

So yes - what we are talking about it quality control rather than method. This does not mean that every pipe cut by every Artisan is "better" in every way... (etc)

Or even that their quality control is better. The BEST solo carvers are awesomely good, but a browsing of the Net will turn up dozens of "artisans" who simply aren't ready for prime time.

 

[cakeanddottle]

I'm buying pipes mostly in the sub $200 range. Sometimes I'll get lucky and snag a $300-500 pipe off ebay for a good price, so I have pipes ranging from $50-500.

I have two machine made pipes. They both smoke well. In fact, the Peterson XL02 I have has risen above my expectations, and it's a great pipe devoted to Va/Pers, my favorite blends.

I have two Bjarne freehands. One is about a $100 Bjarne, the other about a $150 Bjarne. The $150 Bjarne is vastly superior, and is my single favorite pipe. They both smoke good, but a big tip of the hat to the more expensive Bjarne. It just rocks.

I recently picked up a Jeppesen grade 2, msrp around $450-500 probably, would sell for closer to $300 I think. Finish and cut-wise it's definitely in another league. Other aspects of it aren't as nice, like the chintzy stem it has. However another aspect of this pipe that blew my mind was obviously by design. The very size and shape of the pipe enhances the smoke. You are almost continuously enveloped by an almost cyclic revolution of what you're smoking through both mouth and nose. It amplifies the blend you're enjoying. I can't imagine something like that is by chance, and I thank Peder Jeppesen for producing a pipe that gives me such pleasure.

So yeah I think to a point more money buys you a better smoke, but like all things some of these pipes are just plain overpriced, and some of the more modest ones smoke great too.

 

[Anonymous]

Apples and Oranges.

If what trips your trigger are classic shapes that score 10 out of a possible 10 as shapes, then I would respectfully suggest that you look into OLD English firms like BBB, GBD and others. Not everything they made came out close to originally intended specs, but when one did, and it's in nice shape, you really have something special. There's an old BBB Own Make Virgin squat bulldog here I got back in the '70s (probably older production that had languished in the pipeline) that's too nice to smoke. I just get it out every once in a while and admire it. Putting use wear on it, however little and however carefully, would be deteriorating something that's never going to come again.

The "simple" forms are the hardest to get exactly right. And several of the old firms had frazing models that WERE exactly right.

With "high end hand mades" today you're mostly dealing with improvisatory shapes. If you like them and can afford them, great. But they're oranges to the classic apples. And like cars with big fins, I suspect that the aesthetic appeal of some of them may not be everlasting.

(Not that that matters if you have some and like them).

:face:

 

[Frost]

There is definitely a good point there Yak, although it would seem that there are some things which generally speaking are comparable between any two pipes, almost regardless of vintage, school, shape, etc. Things such as drilling, finish, symmetry, line continuity, bitwork, etc.

A perfectly shaped classic English billiard drilled halfway up the bowl with a gap in the tenon that whistles and collects gunk and moisture with every smoke could still be said to be "inferior" in that particular aspect to a perfectly drilled Maigurs Knets snail.

I think one of the issues here is that even though we all know what we mean when we say handmade or machine made, it's safe to say that those are just terms of convenience and aren't really accurate. I'd say it's even conceivable that there could almost be some general consensus on which pipes fit into each category, if we could only find the right category names. :lol:

 

[SmokeyTweed]

I really feel this thread should have been entitled mass-produced versus solitary craftsmanship.

Having said that it has been a great read so far.

One thing i have noticed on these boards interestingly enough is that for all the peterson talk most everyone enjoys their XL02. I own two and they have turned out to be great smokers.(Even with the unusally long peterson break-in period) :scratch:

But more importantly this thread helped me avoid a grievous error in purchasing a Rad when my hard earned Loonies should be going into Sasquatch's furry pockets. 8)

 

[LL]

But more importantly this thread helped me avoid a grievous error in purchasing a Rad when my hard earned Loonies should be going into Sasquatch's furry pockets. 8)

I detect a bit of nationalistic distortion in that view, never mind that everyone knows it's wrong. Our flannel shirted Radney can kick your Squatchy's furry ass. And twice on Sunday. So there.

Plus, your mother wears army boots.