Dunhill group sizes

[Fr_Tom]

Curious about Dunhill group sizes, I went to smokingpipes.com and found three shapes that were available in Dunhill sizes 3, 4 and 5. I took the chamber diameter and depth of the first three in each size there, subtracted 1/8 in from the diameter (1/16 cake on each side) and computed the volume of a cylinder with those dimensions. I realize this is not actually the true volume due to taper. The heel cake shortens the height, but I did not account for that. I figured it would give me an idea of relative sizes though.

Just in case someone else is interested in this, I have attached the spreadsheet.

Dunhill Group Sizes

 

[Ocelot55]

That's very interesting. I realized that Dunhill group sizes can be all over the place, but this puts numbers to hunches. I think when they say "group size" it refers more to a synthesis of the actual size and weight of the stummel and to the capacity of the chamber.

I've actually been thinking about adding group size related nomenclature to my pipes. The question is do I come up with a group size roughly related to capacity, stummel size, or both. Right now I'm leaning toward two separate stamps: 1-6 for capacity and then something like Ashton uses "x" being the smallest "xx" and so on all the way to "ELX" or the like.

 

[Fr_Tom]

That's very interesting. I realized that Dunhill group sizes can be all over the place, but this puts numbers to hunches. I think when they say "group size" it refers more to a synthesis of the actual size and weight of the stummel and to the capacity of the chamber.

One problem for me as I see reference to this is that there is an assumption that group size is a bowl capacity thing. In reality as you say, it is more complex than that. My sample was small, and smokingpipes.com does not have enough Dunhills to have many shapes in all three sizes. As I played with the numbers, I found a group size 3 and a group size 4 Prince that were almost identical in size. It does quantify things a little for me anyway.

 

[ftrplt]

Padre Tom...You put in a lot of work on this one!!!! From Day 1 of Dunhill, their pipes were "relatively" small due to the price of tobacco in England and Europe. There were exceptions, of course, but still the vast majority were smaller (Range of 1, 2, and 3, with some 4's). The circled "size" number appeared on DH pipes (with exceptions, DH's always have exceptions!!) in the early 50's. DH made larger pipes for the U.S. market in the patent number years as the American market demanded it. "4" sized, ODA/B/C, the Magnums, etc. generally ended up here due to demand. The 5 and 6-sized pipes showed up later, filling the spot between a "4" and an "OD."

There is nothing perfect about DH's sizing system. It's all relative!! And ever changing also, it seems. That's why you hear a DH described as a "large 4 or a small 5." Boy, that sure told me a lot!!! :lol!: FTRPLT

 

[monbla256]

Then you can throw in how Charatan did their "group" sizing!! Back in the 60's/70's Charatan grp size was always the first number of the style number on the shank and a Charatan grp 4 was always BIGGER (in overall size) than a corresponding grp 4 of Dunhill's ! :twisted: I think both systems were more of a pricing factor used on the factory floor to sort out the various pipes when they were sold. Not really anything to do with the tobacco capacity of the individual pipes. :twisted: 

 

[hagley]

The group size is the size of the ebauchon, not the finished bowl size. I never can spell that word, but you know I am talking about the block of wood.  

Mike

 

[docwatson]

I think both systems were more of a pricing factor used on the factory floor to sort out the various pipes when they were sold. Not really anything to do with the tobacco capacity of the individual pipes. :twisted: 

Monbla,
You are totally correct. And that is not an assumption, it is fact. I personally know people that have been to the factories, Castello being one in particular. And that is their method of pricing certain pipes. They will take a shipment of pipes going to a retailer and stamp them according to the $$ value of the order.
As far as Dunhill is concerned their sizes may not be very exacting but it does give collectors and smokers some relative size for comparison. And we all use these size numbers as a description when you can't physically hold the pipe or when describing a photo of a particular pipe.
The sizes however don't hold true in very early Dunhill pipes, especially during the patent era where I have seen ODA's that were so small that today they would be considered an average group 4 size.

 

[Ocelot55]

The group size is the size of the ebauchon, not the finished bowl size.  I never can spell that word, but you know I am talking about the block of wood.   

Mike

This makes a lot of sense. It also would effect pricing as larger blocks cost more. May I ask how you discovered such info?

 

[PozzSka]

The group size is the size of the ebauchon, not the finished bowl size.  I never can spell that word, but you know I am talking about the block of wood.   

Mike

This makes a lot of sense. It also would effect pricing as larger blocks cost more. May I ask how you discovered such info?

I've seen it mentioned, too, but I don't remember where I saw it.

 

[docwatson]

The group size is the size of the ebauchon, not the finished bowl size.  I never can spell that word, but you know I am talking about the block of wood.  
Mike

This makes a lot of sense. It also would affect pricing as larger blocks cost more. May I ask how you discovered such info?

I don't recall where this info comes from either. YES, larger ebauchons cost considerably more and are usually priced accordingly. Extra Large blocks used for Castello pipes for example are stamped Great Line. Which is a size definition, just as modern day Dunhills would be stamped ODa ODb etc.

You know as well, being a pipe maker that you are paying a premium for the larger ebauchons. Especially of they are graded for premium plateau and grain.

 

[NSPiper]

Thanks for the research. I've been looking for exact figures for a while and couldn't find them anywhere, including the White Spot.
Much appreciated.
Ken

 

[hagley]

I have ODAs from the 1920s and 1930s and they are certainly as large as any ODA in the same shape from the 1960s and later.  There are a couple ODA, 806 comes to mind, that were never large pipes, and about the same size as a group 4 LB from pre 1970.  An LB would today be a group 5 or possibly a group 6.

 

[Docsknotinn]

Interesting comparison. I recently sold a '60 group 4 Tanshell LB. The bowl was massive on that beast. Bigger than many ODA's I've seen. Instead of capacity I just tend to think of the Dunhill groups as a very general size guide.

 

[cigrmaster]

I have always used the Dunhill group sizes as a guide and it has been very useful to me when buying a new pipe. Because there is so much variation in the same group number, I never take any description as an absolute. When someone is selling a group 5 pipe I know it could be a small 5 a big 5 or a medium 5. When I am buying a pipe I will always make sure I have all the bowl dimensions in either inches or MM or CM and never rely solely on a group number. I like when someone lists their pipes using the Dunhill group designation as if someone says they are selling a group 1, I know just from that one description, it is too small and I do not have to read anymore of their add.

 

[Geoff]

Beside referring to an actual Dunhill pipe's info, the only outlet that I know of that uses them on all pipes they sell is Iwan Riese.

I think including cake might help a smoker but is not Dunhill thinking as they sold naked bowls.

As cigrmaster pointed out the sizing can be ifffy with too much of a span. Most of my pipes run pretty close to the .75x1.5 bowl. I think of them as 3-4's when I think group size. I'd say only a couple are true/assured group 4's.

 

[Fr_Tom]

I think including cake might help a smoker but is not Dunhill thinking as they sold naked bowls.

The project started out of curiosity about smoke time with various bowl sizes. People would report 45 minutes out of a group size 3. I wanted to quantify this in some way just so I could figure out what that meant. I had just gotten a pot, and I wondered about relative tobacco capacity. Does a 1 X 1.375 bowl hold 50% more tobacco than a .75 X 1.5? Since the volume depends on the square of the radius, that cake has a larger impact on the volume of a small bowl - just one of those things I pondered. So - I included it.

Another observation of mine is that advertised bowl diameter does not always equal bowl diameter in the hand. On Ebay, this may be the eyeball calipers - "it looks like 3/4 in. so that is what I will list." You want some idea of what you are getting...