Group Sizing?

[flyguy]

Iwan Ries is the only seller of pipes that lists the "Group Size" on all of their pipes for sale.  I believe this is a Dunhill size designation.  Is it calculated by chamber size or amount of tobacco it can contain?
I have noted that I prefer sizes 2-4 but need a more precise way to estimate the group size so I won't purchase over-sized pipes.
Does anyone know how group sizes are calculated?

 

[monbla256]

Iwan Ries is the only seller of pipes that lists the "Group Size" on all of their pipes for sale.  I believe this is a Dunhill size designation.  Is it calculated by chamber size or amount of tobacco it can contain?
I have noted that I prefer sizes 2-4 but need a more precise way to estimate the group size so I won't purchase over-sized pipes.
Does anyone know how group sizes are calculated?

This question or a variation of it comes up about once a year both here and on other Forums and I've never read or seen a definitive answer to it. The main thing I've been able to discern about it was that it was a way of pricing pipes that Dunhill made. And the group size was determined after the pipe was made and when the stamping and grading was done on the factory floor. Dunhill was not the only one to use this sizing nomenclature though they were the first as I'm given to understand. Charatan also used a similar numerical grp sizing though their sizes were on average about a 1/2 size bigger than a corresponding Dunhill. If you can get a sampleing of at least 10 Dunhill's in every size from grp 1 to the ODA's and all the same grade and style, line 'em up and you'll have a good idea size wise for THAT style and grade of pipe, then work your way through all six grades (finishes) of pipe with the same shape. When your done, get back with us and then YOU will be the FIRST one to DEFINATIVLY answer this question !!! All SA aside, this is one of those scientifically UN scientific things about this activity.   :twisted: :twisted:

 

[flyguy]

Thanks monbla256!  I figured it was some sort of imprecise mumbo-jumbo of hidden knowledge only known by the elite pipemakers/marketers at Dunhill. Unfortunately I can't afford to purchase the number of Dunhill pipes it would take to conduct this scientific study.  Heck, I can't even afford one Dunhill at the present.  
How about some of you Dunhill-o-philes conducting this study for BoB posterity?

 

[rothnh]

"Group size" determination, even with Dunhill is, IMO, a ballpark estimate at best to give us some idea of the pipe's size; i.e., some are identified as Group 4, but are really Group 5, while another Group 4 is a Group 3, yet another Group 4 is actually a Group 4.

That said, other makers who use group sizing are sometimes even more "all over the place" than Dunhill ...Ian Walker (Northern Briars) comes to mind.

When in doubt, if it's not delineated by the seller, I suggest asking for measurements.

 

[MisterE]

I think group size also has to do with the outer dimensions. I have a few group 2 Dunhills that have a chamber size almost identical to a group 3 or even 4, in one case. They're just smaller on the outside. Thinner walls and narrower stems, etc.

As others have said, they're just ballpark figures so you can intuit the relative size without actually seeing it.

 

[Fr_Tom]

This might help.

I got curious about what was meant when people talked about group sizes, so I pulled some dimensions and made a speadsheet. pipemaker refined it.

https://www.brothersofbriar.com/t25771-determine-the-tobacco-volume-for-virtually-any-pipe

 

[flyguy]

Thanks Fr Tom,
Very useful. I guess I am a bit OCD but those numbers give me a rough idea. My IRC Giant must be a group 6. It is a huge pipe. So far I haven't found much use for huge pipes and am trying to avoid them in the future. Tobacco tastes like a completely different animal when smoked in one of these puppies. There are better ways to get a longer smoke than purchasing huge pipes.
I have sent an inquiry to Iwan Ries to get their parameters for labeling their pipes. So far, no answer...
PS: Iwan Ries only gives info on group size and not the pipe dimensions.

 

[Fr_Tom]

I got my numbers from the spreadsheet from smokingpipes.com. They list dimensions for Dunhills. I really did it out of curiosity. People would talk about a group 3, and I have been smoking since the late 70's and did not really know what that meant. Once I made the spreadsheet and got some sense for just what was a 3 and what was a 5 in my own assortment of pipes, I thought someone else might be interested.

http://www.smokingpipes.com/pipes/new/dunhill/index.cfm

 

[hagley]

The Dunhill group designation was to identify the size of the ebauchon used to make the pipe. The ebauchons were graded by size from 1 to 4. Obviously ODA were made from larger blocks.
The group size had nothing to do with the bowl capacity, but obviously one would expect the larger the group size, the more tobacco it would hold.
Mike

 

[Fr_Tom]

The Dunhill group designation was to identify the size of the ebauchon used to make the pipe.  The ebauchons were graded by size from 1 to 4.  Obviously ODA were made from larger blocks.
The group size had nothing to do with the bowl capacity, but obviously one would expect the larger the group size, the more tobacco it would hold.
Mike

I can believe this was how the numbers originated. Iwan Ries though is not talking about the ebauchon, unless they are getting information from Peterson, Savinelli, et al. that others don't get. From context on the forums, it looked like a S,M,L designation ONLY related to bowl capacity.

 

[hagley]

More than likely Iwan Ries is using that terminology because the pipe collecting hobby has been using Dunhill sizing for many years to describe a pipe size.
Other makers use L, XL, XXX, Maxima, and other terms as part of their stamping to designate pipe sizes and price points.
If someone says a Peterson or a Rad Davis is a Group 4 size, they are merely trying to make a size comparison to a Dunhill.
Mike