Led Zeppelin's Black Dog

[MisterE]

After listening to Bub's post of guitar riffs I got to thinking about one I've just never been able to figure out. Black Dog by Led Zeppelin.

I remember first hearing it way back when and thinking "cool but odd". Every time I've heard it since I've always tried to figure it out. What the hell meter is it in, how does the drummer play in 4/4 half time while Page plays the bridge in what sounds to be mixed meter and they manage to coincide. It defies notation. If fact out of curiosity (and frustration), I actually found a notated transcription of the tune and it makes even less sense on paper than by ear.

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I don't know for sure, but complex mixed meter and juxtaposed time signatures don't seem practical for plain rock and roll. The vocal is in straight ahead 4/4 but the big question is where the hell is beat one in any of it!?

The strangest passages are the instrumental transitions between the vocals (see transcriptions). What makes it difficult is that the time is not constant between the two. A vocal recitativ, if you will, followed by an instrumental response. Related but not connected in any way. When it finally gets going you can get a feeling for the time and how it fits. If I were to have transcribed this my version would look very different. Mostly that I would consider beat 2 of the instrumental transcription to actually be beat 1 as you listen.

I strongly suspect that this was the result of simply getting it as close to sounding "right" rather than a highly rehearsed product.

I only post this because I have listened to this song for over 30 years and have never "gotten it". I have applied whatever understanding of music I have to it for years and still come up short. Kind of like a modern "Enigma Variations".

What say youse?

 

[Rob_In_MO]

MisterE - please don't take this the wrong way, but you might be trying to analyze this one too deeply. I have nothing but respect for LZ, but notations, 1/2 beats, and mixed metering probably were not the group's major concerns at the time.

As much as I like the group, I doubt that any of this was actually planned. Some groups would've intentionally tried stuff like this and could've pulled it off (Rush or the Blue Oyster Cult come to mind with having this type of precision) but with these guys and the shape they were in at the time :mrgreen: it sounded good to them and they liked it.

I honestly think this came about by ear and don't think notation and deep analysis was required or intended by them at that time in their musical career. More than likely, the notation came later - only to then realize what they had actually pulled off.

I could be way off base here, but I have to go with my instincts on this one.

 

[Hunter5117]

I would both agree and disagree with Rob. Regarding the notation etc, Page got his start as a studio guitarist who couldn't read music, so I don't imagine he was the one who would put all this down on paper. However, regarding the planning and analysis, I fully imagine they (he) knew exactly what he was doing at every moment and he pulled deeply from his roots in multiple musical genres when putting together the LZ tunes.

 

[Kyle Weiss]

Composed by:

Lots.

Of.

DRUGS.

No analyzing necessary. 8)

 

[MisterE]

MisterE - please don't take this the wrong way, but you might be trying to analyze this one too deeply. I have nothing but respect for LZ, but notations, 1/2 beats, and mixed metering probably were not the group's major concerns at the time.

As much as I like the group, I doubt that any of this was actually planned. Some groups would've intentionally tried stuff like this and could've pulled it off (Rush or the Blue Oyster Cult come to mind with having this type of precision) but with these guys and the shape they were in at the time :mrgreen: it sounded good to them and they liked it.

I honestly think this came about by ear and don't think notation and deep analysis was required or intended by them at that time in their musical career. More than likely, the notation came later - only to then realize what they had actually pulled off.

I could be way off base here, but I have to go with my instincts on this one.

I totally agree Rob.

The thing that I've always suspected is that it was a very simple idea to begin with. That trying to make it work, it ended up being far more complicated than it originally was imagined. What I've always tried to figure out was finding the "original idea" underneath it all. That still eludes me.

(We just did a program of all 20th century works last week so comlplexity and "trying to figure **** out" has been in my head, lol. )

 

[Rob_In_MO]

Mister E - if you really want to drive yourself crazy with analysis, analyze 'Pet Sounds' by the Beach Boys.

Brian Wilson's precision melodies and harmonies make this album stand out against most other ever recorded. Not to mention his blending of instruments = playing 2 different instruments at the same time, playing the same notes, and in the same key, all at once - producing a recorded sound that neither instrument is, but yet both are. Some of his combinations still make me scratch my head, but sound so wonderful and work so well with the songs' tempo and feeling.

The Beatles also did exactly this with Sgt. Peppers, just not to the same extent and precision level as Brian Wilson accomplished in Pet Sounds.


Also worth noting is 'On Your Feet or On Your Knees' by the Blue Oyster Cult. Buck Dharma's incredible precision is masterfully shown off here. His harmonies & time signatures, all coordinated with the group really make these guys stand out. With him and Eric Bloom often doubling on the guitars and Allen Lanier's incomprehensible keyboard runs - this one will keep you busy analyzing for quite some time as well. And of course the Bouchard brothers on drums and bass are about as tight and precise as you can get. And did I mention that these are all 'Live' performances? No safety net, no stopping the tapes, no remastering, just the raw original sound performance.

 

[Puff Daddy]

Jimmy Page was one of the most talented guitarists of his time, a studio musician who worked with a lot of great people doing a variety of things, he was a big musical talent. That he went on to found one of the heaviest rock bands ever doesn't lessen this. If you think the Zep songs came from some drunken riffs they lucked into, you're mad. Clearly the pattern was well thought out, blues based cutting edge with intent. To think that they didn't have, or wouldn't have, the desire or ability to put together some mixed metre structure like Blackdog intentionally is ridiculous. It sits right on the edge of workability, and probably intentionally so. They actually did a lot of this, listen to Kashmir, even the simple melody lines are mixed metre gems.

Credit where credit is due!

 

[MisterE]

Jimmy Page was one of the most talented guitarists of his time, a studio musician who worked with a lot of great people doing a variety of things, he was a big musical talent. That he went on to found one of the heaviest rock bands ever doesn't lessen this. If you think the Zep songs came from some drunken riffs they lucked into, you're mad. Clearly the pattern was well thought out, blues based cutting edge with intent. To think that they didn't have, or wouldn't have, the desire or ability to put together some mixed metre structure like Blackdog intentionally is ridiculous. It sits right on the edge of workability, and probably intentionally so. They actually did a lot of this, listen to Kashmir, even the simple melody lines are mixed metre gems.

Credit where credit is due!

I didn't mean to imply that Page was not talented by any means! His playing and compositions speak for themselves. As a group they did stuff nobody had done in a rock setting up to that time. My only point was that this particular song presents some "riddles" in it's structure that aren't easily felt or seen. That's all.

Kashmir is also an interesting tune, but far more accessible. It's basically a 4 bar 3/4 pattern superimposed over a 3 bar 4/4 pattern in the drums. The result is a circular feel which coincides every 3rd bar in 4 or 4th bar in 3. Interesting but very predictable.

Black Dog, on the other hand, has no discernible "fit" in the way that Kashmir has. That is what vexes me!! lol.

 

[Puff Daddy]

I didn't mean to imply

Sorry Mr E, my comments weren't pointed at you but at those who were scoffing ( Kyle, cough cough scoff! :lol: ).

 

[Harlock999]

As an unschooled "musician", I can only add that I have been constantly amazed and mesmerized by the interplay of meter vs. riff on many Zep tunes, especially "Black Dog", and I can understand MisterE's fascination with this one. Something about the manner in which time is being kept by Bonham is just so off kilter in relation to Page's riffs, which may be what elevates them above something like Black Sabbath, or mere riff rock. RIP...

 

[glpease]

I remember first hearing it way back when and thinking "cool but odd". Every time I've heard it since I've always tried to figure it out. What the hell meter is it in, how does the drummer play in 4/4 half time while Page plays the bridge in what sounds to be mixed meter and they manage to coincide. It defies notation. If fact out of curiosity (and frustration), I actually found a notated transcription of the tune and it makes even less sense on paper than by ear.

The problem with the analysis from this transcription is that it's only one main guitar part. Harlock's comments are spot on. It's Bonzo's interplay with Page that makes it both complex and compelling, coupled with the fact that there's some 5s over 4s stuff going on, and Bonzo's snare is tuned so low that it sounds like another kick, played on the 1 and 3, producing an odd syncopation.

Bonzo was a very musical percussionist in his own right. Page gets all the credit, often, and he certainly deserves a lot (as a guitar player, he's always been one of my heroes), but Bonham brought a lot of tension to the rhythmic lines that propelled the songs very powerfully. He wasn't just loud.

If you could find a transcript with the drums as well, I think it might all make more sense. It won't be less complex, but at least you'll be able to see, graphically, what's going on in the weird bits.

 

[mark]

Harlock's comments are spot on. It's Bonzo's interplay with Page that makes it both complex and compelling,


coupled with the fact that there's some 5s over 4s stuff going on, , played on the 1 and 3, producing an odd syncopation.

BINGO,,,(IMHO)