Personal defense handgun suggestions for women?

[Vito]

Yeah...I'm definitely concerned about the PMR-30's reported jamming. I wouldn't mind the fact that it might need very specific ammo to work reliably, but it would absolutely have to be reliable. I'm talking about firing without jamming under all conditions—cold, hot...whatever.

If I can't find a local shooting range that has one I can rent and try, then a small revolver might be the way to go. I've always loved Ruger's firearms, and the LCR .22 Magnum w/Hogue Grip might be suitable.

Actually, I already have a .22 magnum pistol I absolutely love — the Ruger New Model Six (stainless) revolver — a classic Western six-gun.

I believe nowadays they're calling it a "convertible". It has two cylinders—one for .22 LR and smaller, and a beefier one for magnum that can withstand the higher pressure of the magnum round. It's a beautiful gun, and reasonably accurate. Of course, it's heavy, impossible to conceal unless I'm wearing very baggy clothing, and it's single action. Not at all practical for personal defense unless you're ridin' the range and being attacked by rabbits riding slow balloons. :roll:

 

[puros_bran]

Coyote,
All semi-autos jam. Some more than other. I'm not contesting your claim, but it will jam eventually. It's why we train for it to happen. Using Hornady Critical Defense probably has more to do with it than the 238.
Don't misunderstand me,  I have Kimbers version of Sigs Colt Mustang copy.  They (all three sig/kimber/colt) are the absolute best pocket gun ever created...but it requires a boatload of practice. Because of that I'd never suggest a single action pocket gun to anyone else.   Most people won't practice enough to be safe with it.  
Curious, what kinda holster do you use?  I carry mine in a Desantis Nemesis. I like that holster so much I bought one for my j frame.

Vito I had a Ruger LCR in 357, pretty sweet.  I wouldn't hesitate at all to carry one in 22mag. I wouldn't go to South West Louisville after dark with it, but it'd be fine putzing around town.  I have an SP101 in 357, I think I've showed it to you before, the fancy engraved mamyjammy.  Its an awesome piece. Honestly a normal SP101 would make a pretty sweet purse gun. Load some 38spl 158gr SWC (or Hornady Critical Defense 110gr FTX)  and a speed strip or a speed loaded...good to go.  I like the big slow bullet, some like the smaller faster ones.

Send Doverpipes a pm. He trains local/state/federal guys up in NY. He probably has a crap load of legitimate sage advise.

On that note, unless someone asks me something I'll shut up and let you fellers talk.

 

[LL]

The thing to remember is a handgun is a crappy weapon. It's not nearly powerful enough to stop someone unless you score a spine/brain/heart shot. So "stopping power" is pretty mythical.  A 22 will kill someone, but will they kill you before they die?
Most handgun stops occur before the round is even fired...  if not then usually after a hit the assailant breaks and runs. If they are still in the fight who knows what happens.

Take those girls to a range that rents firearms and let them try out a few.

This is the exactly correct answer.   ^^^^

I knew (and was offered an instructor's job at Gunsite) by Jeff Cooper, and competed with many of his acquaintances at a high level for a number of years (and later in the IPSC).  As hardcore as they were about stopping power, they also understood that military and police work was an entirely different thing than civilian personal defense and conflating the two could lead to absurd conclusions and "over arming".

 

[Thistleoak]

Could always go with this model :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

 

[Lonecoyote]

PB, I totally agree that most automatics can jam but like you stated it all depends on the ammo. I'm carrying/conceal since 1972 and I'm old school. I carry my p238 cross draw, I use a Forbus holster made in Israel, very well made. I own a few different Forbus holsters. Also make my own out of Kydex and line them with leather to protect the weapon I'm carrying and a quick release if needed. My Sig p238 has not jammed when I intentionally limp wrist or side shoot similar to gangster style. Oh, I'm also a Ruger fan and own a 1911 Commander, which has yet to jam, and I've tried. At times I carry my Colt Python, you can't ask for more reliable weapon!! Nothing better then a .357 revolver for sure. With that said, I would not trust the PMR-30 a far as I can throw it, that's from my personal experience. I'm coming across MANY people that carry here in NC and hardly go to a range, that's another story! If you don't practice often whatever you carry, that will not get you out of a tough situation if/when needed. If that time comes and you need to draw your weapon you MUST have the capability to think fast and follow the rules how I was trained and live by....
Know your target, See your target, hit your target, and what most forget... You better damn well know who or what's behind your target. All of that needs to be accomplished in a split second. That's why shooting often at a range is extremely important, set up similar scenarios and practice. No matter what you carry, your weapon is only as good as you are shooting it.

KEEP ON PUFFING!!!

 

[puros_bran]

I completely agree with the 357 remark.
I have a 50yard shooting range in the back yard. It comes in handy.
I'm not ancient of days by any measure, well any measure that doesn't include teenagers....but I did start daily carrying in the early 80's.
No idea how many rounds I've put down range. I load about 500 or so rounds per month, but there are two of us that regularly shoot out of the pile.

If you reload any at all Sages Reloading Supply is where it's at. He has a webpage and a facebook presence He puts "Combo Packs" on sale pretty regularly.

 

[AdamCordray]

Wow this topic has generated a lot of discussion over the past hour or so!
A few things jumped out at me when reading through, and much of this is my personal feelings or opinion on the matter.

I'm a little hesitant to use a Kel-Tec as any daily carry or personal defense weapon given their reputation... they make some nice guns but when reliability is an issue, it's not my carry weapon. As an aside, I would probably shy away from rim-fire for daily carry as well, but thats completely personal choice. In my opinion, personal defense = no compromise.

Probably the most important person/persons to include in this discussion is the people who will actually be carrying the guns... If they're not comfortable with a gun or cartridge power, then they're less likely to carry it or be confident when it counts. I agree they should shoot as many different guns and calibers as possible before they make a decision with you. Perhaps the first thing to decide is the platform, either revolver or semi-automatic, as this will dictate much of the conversation that follows in regards to size, capacity, and caliber. How complicated do they want their firearm to be? If they're comfortable with the loading/unloading and operating the slide of most modern semiautomatics then this shouldn't be an issue. Safety mechanisms (or the "illusion of safety mechanism") is a whole different topic, and may not even be part of the discussion if California requires the firearm to have a safety.

I like Scottie's weapon of choice, the SW 637. Simple, reliable, rock solid reputation, powerful personal defense cartridge (and flexible firepower given the option to use +P).

 

[huffelpuff]

One of my best friends in the RW was an NYC cop for 40 years. He always said that he's seen huge guys hit in nonleathal areas with 22s drop like a fly and die and little guys take 12 from a 45 most of them center mass and not have it even phase them. Lots of it is how the attacker sees what is happening and their preconceived notions of what happens when you're shot. On that note if you don't want to deal with the possible feeding issues of the 22WMR don't rule out the .25acp. With practice they are great reliable little guns. Also where I'm at you're more likely to find 25acp than any 22 ammo ever. Nothing wrong with revolvers either. Just don't expect them to ever enjoy shooting a 357mag in a 2" snubbie. Stick to a 38 if you do a revolver. Just some thoughts.

Jim

 

[DoverPipes]

Kel-Tec would not be my choice for personal defense weapon.
I would look at a nice airweight S&W revolver or a Taurus Titanium.

I carry a Taurus 850 Titanium 5 shot revolver in my front pocket in the warmer months. I specifically mix up the loads with Hornady XTP, Hornady Critical Defense, and Glaser Safety Slug "Silver". I carry Bianchi Speed Strips in a pouch that looks like a small cell phone holder. The whole package weighs next to nothing and I have more than enough ammo on me "to get out of dodge". Otherwise, it's an HK P-2000 .40 S&W (Duty Gun), Kimber Pro-Carry .45 ACP, or Glock 26 9mm.

If they are into semi-autos, take a look at Springfiels XD single stack  or Walther PPS (Mod 1 or Mod 2 is the latest version) 1" thick!!!! 9mm or .40 S&W should be more than adequate.

http://www.springfield-armory.com/products/xd-s-3-3-9-mm/

http://www.waltherarms.com/handguns/pps/

Look at CDNN for great prices: https://www.cdnnsports.com/firearms.html#category_2=FIREARMS%2FHANDGUNS

 

[Vito]

Time for a re-focus...

...they both like the Sig Sauer P230...Neither was able to hold the 9mm Beretta Model 92FS firmly enough to keep it from jamming on the reload, so I think .380 ACP is probably their best shot...

After a great deal of consideration (and given the fact that they already like the Sig Sauer P230, and can fire it with reasonable accuracy), I believe that .380 ACP is where we should be looking. And, notwithstanding the fact that any semi-auto can jam, not all semi-autos are created equal. I've never had a jam on my P230, and neither Mrs. Vito nor the kids were able to get the gun to jam on the shooting range. Translation: The overwhelming probability is that a well-maintained high-quality semi-auto with the right ammo is going to work when needed.

Thanks to all for your suggestions, but I didn't mean to turn this into a "caliber wars" debate, or a venue for everyone posting their personal preferences. If you aren't a woman who can't accurately fire anything over .380 ACP without the gun jamming, what works for you isn't necessarily going to work for the girls.  

I'm operating on the premise that that largest caliber weapon that my kids can fire accurately and reliably will be the most effective. They've already demonstrated that the .380 ACP hits that sweet spot. I tried to make that clear in my OP. Sorry if I didn't communicate that effectively.

"Accurately and reliably" narrows the field quite a bit. For example, the Beretta Pico (for all its many virtues) is off the table. It would be an unwise choice as a first gun for an inexperienced shooter who doesn't have the wrist strength to hold a 9mm semi-auto firmly enough to keep it from jamming. Sure...the Pico is .380 ACP, but it's too light for accurate shooting (for them)...plus it has had reliability (jamming) issues.

PeeBee's recommendation of the Bersa Thunder 380 (and 380 CC) are the front runners at this point. We're going to check them out on the range this weekend.

Thanks again to all for your replies...all of which I know were meant to be helpful.

 

[DoverPipes]

PeeBee's recommendation of the Bersa Thunder 380 (and 380 CC) are the front runners at this point. We're going to check them out on the range this weekend.

Or this......
https://www.cdnnsports.com/beretta-pico-380-inox.html?___SID=U

Hickok45 Review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XjYtISS08U

 

[Vito]

Or this......
https://www.cdnnsports.com/beretta-pico-380-inox.html?___SID=U

Hickok45 Review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XjYtISS08U

Brothah DP: I guess you didn't read my entire post:

For example, the Beretta Pico (for all its many virtues) is off the table. It would be an unwise choice as a first gun for an inexperienced shooter who doesn't have the wrist strength to hold a 9mm semi-auto firmly enough to keep it from jamming. Sure...the Pico is .380 ACP, but it's too light for accurate shooting (for them)...plus it has had reliability (jamming) issues.

In fact, it was Hickok45's excellent review of the Beretta Pico that convinced me it is NOT a good choice. The shallow serrations on the slide made it difficult for him to operate (did you notice that he grunted almost every time he tried to operate the slide?), and I suspect his hand strength is greater than that of my daughters.

He explicitly says that the Pico is an engineering marvel for its size, but he's just as clear in his opinion that it's for experienced shooters, not novices.

My kids watched the video with me last night. I would have advised them against the Pico had they liked what they saw, but they both said "Nope..." without any prompting from me. Their vote counts most.

They also watched these videos (thanks PeeBee!):

Bersa Thunder 380 acp Pistol - YouTube

Bersa Thunder Concealed Carry - YouTube

...hence they're our leading contenders at this point.

 

[puros_bran]

Of note: You can't tell it from the videos but Hickock is a giant. Here's him and his boy with a couple of fine folk.
If he or his son Jon can't rack it, I can't rack it. Lol
image upload no size limit

 

[DoverPipes]

Bruddah Vito: I did read the entire post. The video was filmed before Beretta made improvements to the trigger & slide.

http://www.beretta.com/en-us/pico-upgrade/

Choice is obviously yours to make. The price point was the main reason for my reply.......

If money is no object, buy a Seecamp.

 

[Vito]

Brothah DP: Thanks for your reply and correction. My apologies, amigo. My ignorance of the timing of Hickok45's video and any design changes Beretta has made in the Pico is proof of my lack of familiarity with all things gunular. I'm way out of my depth in the domain of guns and ammo, hence my posting here.

If you have direct experience with the Beretta Pico, that trumps all my second-hand knowledge. So, maybe you can advise me on these questions:

• Do the changes in the slide make it easier to pull back?
• If so, wouldn't that be (partly) the result of a softer spring (not as stiff)?
• If so, wouldn't that increase the recoil and the tendency of the muzzle to rise upon discharge, thereby decreasing accuracy?

You can probably see what my concern is. The right gun for my kids is going to have to accommodate their lack of wrist strength.

That's why I thought .22WMR would be great if someone built a reliable one, but it appears that "rimfire" and "reliable semi-auto" are mutually exclusive, from what I've been able to tell.

I'm not really looking for the smallest, lightest gun at this point. I'm looking for something that's as small yet as powerful as possible while still enabling them to shoot comfortably and hit what they're aiming at. For them, I think that probably means a .380 ACP piece that's got a bit more mass than the Pico...but it wouldn't hurt to try one if we can find a range that has one.

Thanks again for your reply, bro'.

 

[puros_bran]

I'd double down on a Seecamp in a heartbeat.  I'd also grab that NAA Guardian in 32 ACP.  

When I'm having extremely painful legs I'll slip my NAA 22lr in my pocket.(the middle gun) They are basically shoot them in the face get-off-me guns.
But they do/did make a longer barreled 22WMR I forgot about until just now.
Second one from the bottom.  Longer but thinner than a S&W 442.  
Something else I thought of. If these are bump in the night guns grab an old S&W Model 10 or a S&W Model 1905 (later called the victory model, then becoming the model 10) and load it with medium power Semi-wadcutters. Recoil is very manageable, on par with my 380
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Yes I know it's pretty much settled but I really enjoy talking guns. Lol

 

[Vito]

Maybe it's sorta close to being settled for the kids...

...but then there's Vito's GAD to consider. (Did I just spawn a new BoB acronym?) :mrgreen:

Me want more gun! :twisted:

What I really want is a Snake Slayer (.410). Naturally, they're illegal in Gov. Moonbeam's Soviet Socialist Republik of Kalifornicaty.

 

 

[puros_bran]

Move?

Bond Arms is a top notch company. The cool thing is you can slap different caliber barrels on them. They are kinda like miniature Thompson/Center Contenders.

 

[Vito]

Move?

We're considering it.

 

[DoverPipes]

Vito: I have no direct, hands on experience with the improved Pico.
I know a few people who have owned them as back up guns. They seemed to be happy with them.

As with most things, it's a matter of personal preference. i also mentioned the Springfield and Walther. Those are two that I have fired and was impressed by both, but then again, that's me.

I would find a range that will let your Daughters test fire their choices before buying. The gun won't do them any good if they aren't comfortable using it / carrying it.

I also stress the proper selection of ammo for these guns. As the .380 is not a .45 ACP, you can find ammo that provides devastating stopping / knockdown power for the diminutive .380 round.

What about a Glock 42 in .380???? Have you thought about that model yet?