Vintage Pipes

[Rob_In_MO]

Are vintage pipes better quality? Hard call on this one, and no simple answer.

I've got 2 newer Savinellis and a new Peterson Shannon that smoke incredibly well. I've got a relatively new Nording that sucks. Got a couple of flea-market Dr. Grabows that, once cleaned, reamed, and sanitized, smoke very well. Got a couple of newish basket pipes that do real well, and a couple of basket pipes I gave away...

All over the board here - really good names, mass produced factory pipes, flea market pipes, factory seconds. I think it depends more on the pipe rather than it's age. Hell, i've got relatively new Cobs that smoke almost as good as my Savinellis.

Sure, this doesn't apply to everything (vintage Stereo components) - but i've found this to be true in Pipes. Are vintage pipes better? Depends upon the pipe....

 

[Rusty]

Dunhill has been transformed in some ways to something that is almost unrecognizable compared to the Dunhill of old. They're not the same company at all. And I think that somebody in Dunhill has had to repeatedly defend any involvement in the market at all. So we're lucky that they're still making pipes at all.

That will be a sad day if Dunhill ever comes to the conclusion of "why are we making tobacco pipes?", but I don't think out of the realm of possibility at all.

Actually, it seems irrelevant to me if Dunhill comes to this conclusion. I, among others, have already asked this, and act accordingly: I don't buy their pipes. (Cf. Marty Pulvers, a few months ago, who wrote a devastating critique.) Dunhill is a company focused on the well-heeled metrosexual, who is more concerned with what hair stylist to go to than on smoking a nasty ol' pipe thing. Pipes don't really belong there, except for inertia from the past. They aren't even called Dunhills any more, are they? It's their "White Spot" division, and I expect a sell-off soon, but who cares? They've been out-sourced for so long it's laughable. They're way overpriced, and, in my opinion, can't even shape a billiard properly anymore. It's rare that I see one that looks "right." They're all "duhh" billiards, if you know what I mean. Stick with the old ones, when you can find one. They're pretty cool.

Yeah, there has been some negative press for Dunhill out of prominent pipe smokers. I really think we shouldn't do that. A company isn't a single entity. There are many competing interests. Somebody inside Dunhill has been defending their involvement in a shrinking market for a long time. There are pipe and tobacco lovers in that division still. They'd be gone otherwise. I think that division deserves our support.

Dunhill has been a superb marketing talent for as long as they've existed. That hasn't changed. They've had some very close calls along the way. For example, legislation in much of the world has generally forbid using tobacco brands on other non-smoking products. This was a very significant threat to their brand generally. Pipe smokers don't even acknowledge this sort of reality. The company was now a subsidiary of Richemont which has a lot of luxury brand makers in their portfolio. So their survival strategy was to distance themselves from their tobacco past. And they succeeded. Otherwise we would not have Dunhill nor Charatan pipes today. They'd be like Comoy and GBD etc.

The company was acquired by big tobacco a long time ago (1967). It was a great development for them that opened up channels to market that were difficult to reach for a small company. You can go read Mary Dunhill's Family History book. She was the CEO of Dunhill when that happened. It was the right move. But it meant that their tobacco trademarks were separated from them and absorbed into a larger set that belonged to Carreras at the time and have now come down into BAT. So they were no longer making tobacco. The curious developments that started with their Paris store, where they could not retail sell tobacco, has developed into a very profitable large biz. That's the metrosexual stuff to which you refer. The market for pipe tobaccos and pipes declined persistently and continually for the rest of the century and into this one. So while we may crap on them they did the right thing for Dunhill. That someone managed to preserve the pipe and accessory making operation, under that transformation, is due hearty respect. That should be from us, first and foremost.

 

[Richard Burley]

So, Rusty, above: how many shares do you own, if I may be so bold?

 

[Rusty]

So, Rusty, above: how many shares do you own, if I may be so bold?

Dunhill is a subsidiary of Richemont so Dunhill stock is not available.
http://www.richemont.com/our-businesses.html

I own no stock in Richemont.

The history of pipes and tobaccos and the companies has been a hobby of mine for quite a while. You don't have to agree with me. After all this is what makes pipe forum discussions interesting. But our frustration concerning the anti-tobacco crowd and its substantial influence should not be vented on the manufacturers that make products for us. Our population is so small that it seems a shame to shoot at any that share our love of pipes. The folks at the little factory in Walthamstow most certainly do.

But they're not on a pedestal so it's fair ball to compare their older production to the more recent. And we certainly can find reasons to criticize. Where are all the great old shapes?

Also I hope you'll note that I'm not sniping at Marty Pulver either. I was a little disappointed that nobody disagreed with him but then I have to criticize myself too. Dunhill would have to be crazy to respond to Pulver. Music City Marketing? Maybe but they have nothing to gain by splitting the fan base either. I think the story is more interesting and more complex than the one Marty tells.

 

[Zeno Marx]

Rusty, I appreciate and admire your diplomacy. I feel such an approach has a sound, important role in our world. It's good to see. However, diplomacy has its own agenda. I question how much it can color the truth, or rather hinder exposing the truth and potentially discourage frank, blunt discussion. I don't think you were implying Dunhill is below or above criticism, but the idea of removing them from the table as a way to show respect or as a way of protecting our own...I don't know if I like that as an alternative. Maybe I read you wrong, or maybe I'm projecting my own frustrations with other things upon your words here.

 

[Rusty]

Rusty, I appreciate and admire your diplomacy. I feel such an approach has a sound, important role in our world. It's good to see. However, diplomacy has its own agenda. I question how much it can color the truth, or rather hinder exposing the truth and potentially discourage frank, blunt discussion. I don't think you were implying Dunhill is below or above criticism, but the idea of removing them from the table as a way to show respect or as a way of protecting our own...I don't know if I like that as an alternative. Maybe I read you wrong, or maybe I'm projecting my own frustrations with other things upon your words here.

I think we're incredibly lucky that we have so much remaining and the market is fairly healthy esp in the US. It's all good news. Many folks here are recent converts to pipes and the old guys owe them a tip of the hat too. It's because of their interest that the market in the US has turned around. Most of you don't realize this but declines in demand occurred every single year in living memory and before. The manufacturers characterized the market for pipes and pipe tobaccos as a market in long term decline. That's death. We're used to watching in terror as more and more was discontinued. To some extent we haven't lost the terror yet and we've passed it on to yoiunger pipe smokers! So when somebody posts about Stokkebye we almost involuntarily react by wondering what we're going to lose next. It was an STG reorg more than anything else. AFAIK nobody is discontinuing anything.

We can be very honest about real history because there is a lot of it. But we have to be careful that we're really being fair and accurate when we preach that any given manufacturer isn't worthy of our patronage. When any of us say this it effects the brands perception among the newer pipe smokers, of which there are lots. The case should be much clearer before we say that. I suspect the industry only just escaped eternity as history and very little product so it's too soon to celebrate by making one of the suppliers a parasite. Just my 2 cents worth.

But criticizing and assessing products is fair game.

 

[Kyle Weiss]

Rusty, I think you've summed up a good majority of this in a fair light.

The climate and consumer of the pipe has changed from 80 years ago, 50 years ago, and 30 years ago. At this point, there' s a lot looming over the hobby as a whole, old dudes and noobs alike. Anti-tobacco, taxes, artisans/apprentice-trained folks leaving or dying off, blend growing sources, stock and locations (and recipes) constantly changing, briar availability, waning interest--yet when it comes down to it, the pipe still prevails. There's fewer pipers out there, but those that are around are a robust bunch, stronger, more informed and learning faster and more intently than generations past. As was discussed in a thread I brought up recently regarding the "pipe generation gap" between us pups and the old dogs, there's a lot of information out there--almost too much...and with that, its own set of problems.

The fact of the matter is there's a new way and new faces on the pipe scene these days, and that's a good thing. We've evolved in a new world, with new blends and even new pipes. It isn't to say we're better or worse off, but there are some standards and basics that should be adhered to and not lost--and I don't see the complacency for cheaper or lackluster pipes or tobacco happening at all. Bad products have been and always will be available, and I think a majority of those in the hobby can (eventually) tell the two apart. A good pipe will speak for itself if made today or 100 years ago. Good tobacco will always smoke well. Combine the two, and your piece of heaven awaits.

 

[Richard Burley]

Hey, newbie! Pssst!--want some inside info? Buy a friggin' Dunhill. They're the best. So they cost the better part of a grand. Play with the big boys. Dunhills have history and stuff about them. They were, and still are, the best pipe ever in the whole wide world.

That's an opinion. I don't preach. I fact, my regard for priests and preachers is about equal to that of Nietschke's.

Seriously, the idea of the company changing the name to White Spot, in order to distance themselves from tobacco, colors everything I might say about them. I know the mentality. They have a right to do whatever they want; so do I; so do you. In my modest opinion, they should be run over by a truck.

Also, I am a firm believer in capitalism and free enterprise, and not the stupid Republican version of it. But businessmen, as a whole, are another matter. If you ever find cowardice in short supply, just look for the nearest businessman. Believe it or not, this is related to the above. In my opinion.

 

[Kyle Weiss]

Hey Richard, I think there's kids on your lawn. 8) Go get 'em.

 

[monbla256]

Been reading all the replies in this thread so afr and a lot of excellent information has been put forth in response. As far as would an older, pre-owned "estate" pipe be "better" than one made today really has soooo many variables that a definative answer is almost impossible to give. With so many of the "old" respected firms either gone or now under new mgt. it's hard to find any sort of continuity in this area. Remember, "back in the day", standard, production shapes were the "norm" and firms turned out lots of the same looking pipe all the time. The main difference was in the graining and finish as was the specialty of each firm. As far as how old the briar was, this was something one could only accept based on the integrity of the firm and what you felt about their products. None of us could definatively say that our pipe was made from 50/100 yo briar either then or today! So if you felt that GBD ALWAYS used 100 yo briar, for you it was so! If you believe So and So pipe maker today does, then it is so! But I would feel certain that you could not definatively prove it. So we have to decide for ourselves what is in this area. I'm not stateing that what we are told is not, nor was not true, just that we can't prove it when we decide to purchase a pipe, we have to take some things on faith. Given that. what was made back then, by the people who made them, WILL NOT be made today and as such is just that, what was made THEN. Doesn't meen what is made today is less, it is just not what was made THEN. Since i bought my first pipe new back in 1969, and all were bought new untill the mid 80's till this last year, I have the nicety of smoking some of the products of those times and they are some nice smoking pipes for sure. As far as my newest pipes, two Petersons, and a Savanelli I have to say they are made as well as my older pipes from those makers that I have had and smoke as well.
If I were to purchase an "estate" pipe today, I would look to some of those made by some of the older well known makers of their time and once again, I would have to assume all is as was said about them as it was when they were new. As far as some of the newer makers in the field today, I'm not a big fan mainly as the style as is in favor today does not suit me, not because they don't or are not well crafted, honestly made pipes worth the price asked.
Being a smoker of 5 Dunhill pipes made in the late 60's/eraly 70's, bouaght new, I have not really taken the time nor had the opportunity to see or appreciate what is today's product. ( the Dunhill store here in Dallas does not carry much in the way of tobacco products anymore) So I would not hazard any comment as to what is the firm's quality is today. Besides, this is 2012, NOT the late 60's so to expect a firm to stagnate and stay the same for over 40 years is ludicrous.
As far as tobacco's, from what I've encountered in the recnt years now, THIS is the time for a smoker. FAR more variety is available than I recall back then and at reletively decent pricing than was back then.
I say enjoy the wide variety of product available today and relax

 

[Rusty]

Dear Mr. Dunhill,

We've stayed the trucks for now so you may venture out without worry. But dear brother Richard has an interesting and relevant point that I feel should be pressed with you. If you're going to invent a new brand eg 'The White Spot' then we should also expect prices to come down in concert with a new brand. If you're not going to flaunt 'Dunhill' then you shouldn't price them as if they were. You can't have it both ways!

Please, no reply is necessary, just drop the prices!

Sincerely, your truck control agent,

Rusty

PS do you think there is room for Richard on your staff in the colonies? You must admit he has a unique selling style.

 

[Rob_In_MO]

Reading the pages on this thread makes me realize the truth in other recent threads. You guys really are a bunch of grouchy ole Codgers! :lol:

 

[Kyle Weiss]

I prefer "Young Coot," thank you. 8)

 

[riff raff]

but the idea of removing them from the table as a way to show respect or as a way of protecting our own...I don't know if I like that as an alternative. Maybe I read you wrong, or maybe I'm projecting my own frustrations with other things upon your words here.

I took that to be Rusty's sentiment and it does make sense. Divided we fall as they say. But, I guess each of us really votes with their wallets (my sole Dunhill is a 2002). I can't recall a time on any three boards I follow where someone posted a picture of their 2011 Dunhill. This topic of current Dunhill quality drew some heated responses over on the "SmokersForums" a few months ago.

 

[Zeno Marx]

I'd like to see that URL.

 

[riff raff]

I'd like to see that URL.

http://www.smokersforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=102045&highlight=dunhills

 

[Rusty]

Yes, I'd love to see it too. I was peering at their list on SF and I did find a thread where a new pipe smoker asked about Dunhills. And they're generally recommended. Do you remember which month the thread was active?

http://www.smokersforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=102765

They're perpetually under suspicion about their prices and the value proposition which is fair ball. It's always interesting to read pipe smoker's opinions about the products.

Edit: Ah yes I read it. There's nothing terribly critical or damning. I think they're too expensive but they are nice pipes. They had some marvelous profusion of shapes in the past. I think it would be great if they could make some of them again. I also notice that they do make quite few iconic Charatan shapes. So Colin Fromm out in Chatham is very likely the source of those.

I actually have far more Upshalls and Charatans so I'm hardly a Dunhill nut. The last Dunhill that I broke in a few years ago was a '71 Bruyere Dublin (I love Burgundy pipes and I prefer the older Bruyere stain) and it tasted very much like an Upshall which is not to say anything bad. But I think it has to be air cured and it is very well made. Lovely pipe.

 

[Zeno Marx]

I'd like to see that URL.

http://www.smokersforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=102045&highlight=dunhills

well, that was milk toast. I was expecting some fervor! Thanks for giving us the link. Appreciate it.

 

[riff raff]

I actually have far more Upshalls and Charatans so I'm hardly a Dunhill nut. The last Dunhill that I broke in a few years ago was a '71 Bruyere Dublin (I love Burgundy pipes and I prefer the older Bruyere stain) and it tasted very much like an Upshall which is not to say anything bad. But I think it has to be air cured and it is very well made. Lovely pipe.

I'm in total agreement, I have three Upshalls and would rather buy two of them versus one Dunhill. I do aspire to a '61 Dunhill, if I can find the right shape.

 

[s.ireland]

If it makes folks happy to be able to say "It was less common ages ago to find a bad smoking Dunhill than it is to find a good smoking one today" then so be it. I think it's a silly thing to worry about but that doesn't mean it isn't true. All I know is that I own a few 60s, 70s, 80s and 2002-2010 Dunhills and they all smoke great. They are all made well and damnit I like them

I'm with Monbla on this one; don't waste too much time worrying about what others agree is a good value. Find out for yourself. Don't pay a lot for anything unless you are certain it's worth it to you

Fwiw I'm smoking a Dunhill from 2003 right now and it's sublime. I bought it used from a friend and it's worth twice what I paid IMHO :cheers: