Capstan & Three Nuns

[Kyle Weiss]

I'm really not trying to get all sour grapes about it, but I'm just old-fashioned enough to believe that a brand should actually mean something. All these "reintroductions" are like a homeless meth addict knocking out your best man, nicking his tuxedo and showing up at your wedding with a plastic ring stolen from a broken gumball machine, and I'll stop there...

Thanks for drenching my lap in spit-out tea, Greg. Thanks a lot. :|

:lol:

 

[Anonymous]

One could buy a fresh tin so they can pop it open, dump the contents and fill it with a proper clone. Presto!

 

[alfredo_buscatti]

I'd say Mr. Pease hit the mark. Cynicism and clarity. It's hard not to adopt the former in the face of the social honor paid to the man the who makes the most money. In this regard the US is the most depraved, but we've taught everyone else as well how to follow in our footsteps. Bottom line is that do what they will, there are a multiples of very good blends to smoke, many of them excellent, Mr. Pease's blends among them. But the bottom bottom line is that 3Nuns is no longer among them.

 

[Slartibartfast]

As ever...Don't Believe the Hype. Just don't. :afro:

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[ftrplt]

Well ranted, Greg, and spot on.

As long as they seem to have VA and burley available, I wish they (including um, domestic blenders..) would at least try to duplicate the long-gone Troost slices.

GCook....Blew coffee out my nose when I read your ref to Troost Slices!! Haven't heard any BoB's mention TS's in years! I still have the better part of two pouches (out of three originally) that I found while cleaning out an old desk many years ago. They were dry as hell, but were carefully brought back to life. They are enjoyed on rare occasions. I'm not a big Va/Bur or Cavendish fan, but there is something special about this tobacco!!!

I'm not even gonna' try the new TN; I may take a shot at the Capstan Flake. I'm not impressed by any of the reports on "Tobacco Reviews" about Capstan, but those are the shag/cigarette cut version. I'll be interested to hear what the Bob's have to say about the CFlake. I had the "old" Capstan when I was in England many years ago; rather enjoyed it.

 

[JimInks]

Great news! I spoke with the Sutliff rep today about Edward G. Robinson pipe tobacco and doing something with it to promote it. They are going to start selling it in 1.5 tins! Very exciting for me. Why am I announcing it here? Because I told him how many smokers are unhappy that the MacBaren Three Nuns isn't going to be a VaPer, and we had a long discussion about it.

Here's the deal. I will be sending him links to this thread and another on this site, as well as a couple from other sites to the rep, so he can see how much we want a VaPer version of Three Nuns. He said he will talk to his bosses about it. I said I realize the company has already made an investment in the current Three Nuns recipe, but that they should consider putting out a "Classic Three Nuns" with the version we all know and love. Anybody who likes the idea should voice their support now so the power-that-be can see how desirable it is to do this. So, everybody throw your two cents in now! They are willing to listen to us!

 

[DrT999]

Jim: I'm alway willing to give a VaPer a chance! Burleys, even VaBurs, not very interested in

 

[GCook]

Looks like New Three Nuns will go over about as well as New Coke!

Not being a perique lover, I don't know anything about the economics of the stuff. Did it go extinct and un-produceable? Is the world supply of perique controlled by a cartel? I certainly hope it isn't stored in a flammable warehouse!

 

[swhipple]

Three Nuns hasn't been Three Nuns for a very, very long time, and there is little reason to believe that it will suddenly become Three Nuns again with yet another factory producing it. Ditto Capstan. These may turn out to be delicious tobaccos, but that's not the point, is it? (The tobacco world doesn't have an exclusive on this sort of nonsense, either. Years ago, when Heinz bought Lea & Perrins, arguably because they wanted to own the recipe for their super Worcestershire sauce, the immediately turned round and f'd up that very recipe, whilst still robing the stuff in the same livery. Malt vinegar was replaced with distilled white vinegar. Real sugar disappeared in lieu of high fructose corn syrup. I called BS then, and I call it now. [The HFCS has, probably because of huge public outcry, been removed from the formula, but the distilled white vinegar is still a poor substitute for malt vinegar.])

You've hit one of my hot button topics with your rant and I have to say you are right on the mark. I hate, hate, hate when the accounts take over something great and ruin it by substituting cheaper ingredients.

 

[ftrplt]

There's plenty of perique available. I'm not a big perique fan myself, but I can handle it in small doses. I'm working on a tin of PCCA Beacon (delicately containing perique) at the moment. Solani Va. Flake and DH Elizabethan also have a "whisper" of perique that I enjoy.

 

[alfredo_buscatti]

I love perique but am not good tasting it in any blends other than VA/perique. In that regard John Patton is 40% perique. Needless to say I can taste it there! But don't think of it as dominated by the VAs but as an extra perique blend.

 

[huffelpuff]

If anybody is interested the website cigarwebshop.com shows 3 nuns tobacco for sale as being Virginia, Cavindish, Oriental, and Perique. Sounds like the much bemoaned original mixture. FWIW

Jim

 

[HCraven]

You would think the corp guys would make more money off either famous version than the current blend that no one is lauding. A loss for the pipe world.

The know full well that after all the years since the original's disappearance, many of those who remember it well are no longer interested in it, or perhaps, no longer. So, they can put whatever they want in the tin, and count on legions of relatively new pipe smokers to flock to it, to "experience the legend." They'll sell a ton of it, and if it's good, it doesn't even really matter that it bears little resemblance to the original; they'll continue to sell a ton of it, and the throngs will continue to believe they're experiencing the legend. They'll tell their friends about it, and soon, the number of smokers who think this new "version" of Three Nuns is the real thing will outnumber those who know it isn't by a significant multiplier.

And, they'll do this because they've watched it happen before with other blends masquerading as once-great, legendary products. As long as there is someone to buy it, there will be someone to sell it.

Three Nuns hasn't been Three Nuns for a very, very long time, and there is little reason to believe that it will suddenly become Three Nuns again with yet another factory producing it. Ditto Capstan. These may turn out to be delicious tobaccos, but that's not the point, is it? (The tobacco world doesn't have an exclusive on this sort of nonsense, either. Years ago, when Heinz bought Lea & Perrins, arguably because they wanted to own the recipe for their super Worcestershire sauce, the immediately turned round and f'd up that very recipe, whilst still robing the stuff in the same livery. Malt vinegar was replaced with distilled white vinegar. Real sugar disappeared in lieu of high fructose corn syrup. I called BS then, and I call it now. [The HFCS has, probably because of huge public outcry, been removed from the formula, but the distilled white vinegar is still a poor substitute for malt vinegar.])

I'm really not trying to get all sour grapes about it, but I'm just old-fashioned enough to believe that a brand should actually mean something. All these "reintroductions" are like a homeless meth addict knocking out your best man, nicking his tuxedo and showing up at your wedding with a plastic ring stolen from a broken gumball machine, and I'll stop there...

...but in the end, you still wind up married.

With sincere respect to Mr. Pease, I know this blend isn't what it once was, but having smoked a few bowls now, I think it's still something special.  Of course, time will tell if it has real staying power in my rotation, but it's different from anything I've ever tried, it's a high quality tobacco, and it just plain tastes good. 

Perhaps carrying the Three Nuns name gives it an unfair advantage, as we have seen SP burn through what was presumably a very large shipment (given that there were no order limits and from what I understand, they were even giving volume discounts) in about a day's time, selling the blend mostly to people who've never tried it before, even if they are 20+ year veteran smokers like myself.  To some extent, it's an advantage shared by Mr. Pease, whose reputation for excellence often helps move a new tobacco much faster than a new introduction by a lesser known blender.  I seem to remember Jack Knife Plug selling at a rather brisk pace when it was first introduced as well, for instance.  There's nothing wrong with that, by the way, it's the nature of business, and when a company like Mac Baren (or Orlik before them) pays their royalty to Imperial Tobacco for the privilege of making and selling Three Nuns, that good will is a large portion of the equation.  The recipe itself is almost incidental.

Speaking of which, I don't know how long it's been since there was Perique in Three Nuns, but Mac Baren's response to the question seems to indicate that the recipe has not changed in any substantial way since at least 2003:

As long as the Three Nuns has been made in Denmark it did not contain Perique. It could be that Imperial Tobacco back in time had some Perique in the blend and at a later time they removed it from the recipe. However Perique are not included in the recipe we got from Imperial Tobacco once we took over the production of Three Nuns last year. Mac Baren took over the production of Three Nuns from STG, who produced it since 2003, and in their recipe Perique was not mentioned either. [sic]

http://mac-baren.com/forum/f/1-pipe-tobacco/t/46-does-modern-three-nuns-contain-perique?page=1

It's also important to remember that unlike some other companies, Imperial Tobacco actually still exists and dictates how the blend is to be made, so Mac Baren's takeover of the production is mainly important to the history of Three Nuns in that they are willing and able to import the blend to the US again, something STG apparently could not or would not do:

When we took over the production of Three Nuns we where obliged to follow the recipe and instructions from Imperial Tobacco on how to produce Three Nuns. We are the producer but the recipe belong to Imperial Tobacco. [sic]

http://mac-baren.com/forum/f/1-pipe-tobacco/t/46-does-modern-three-nuns-contain-perique?page=1

One of the things I love about this hobby is that despite my years of experience in it, I'm still a relative noob compared to other smokers.  That gives me a great fountain of wisdom from which to learn, and assures me that collecting and smoking pipes and tobacco is not something of which I'll likely grow tired.  It's great to hear comparisons from others who have had the privilege of smoking Perique-containing Three Nuns either when it was still in production or by way of unopened tins that have lingered around, and perhaps the brand has become a legend based on that older recipe and their memories of it.  Nonetheless, even in it's current incarnation it has stood the test of time, and no matter what it's name or origin, it's still a damn fine tobacco.  If you don't want to try it because it's not the Three Nuns you remember, I understand, but I for one will enjoy it for what it is now, just as I enjoy the new Balkan Sobranie.  Yes, the names and associated legends put these tobaccos on my TAD list sooner than other lesser known tobaccos, but I feel that they are both still excellent blends deserving of the reputations their respective names have earned.

 

[Richard Burley]

Well stated, Herb. I like all tobacco but try to stay away from fads. For instance, I have yet to try Penzance, but I can wait. If pipe tobacco is anything like cigar tobacco, there is variation even within the original maker's product due to weather, curing conditions, how their source did at the auction, etc., even subtle changes in the recipe that they tell no one about. Wouldn't mind some Bengal Slices though, a tobacco that stunned me by its excellence years ago. I'd be a sucker for that.

 

[keen smoke]

So, they can put whatever they want in the tin, and count on legions of relatively new pipe smokers to flock to it, to "experience the legend." They'll sell a ton of it, and if it's good, it doesn't even really matter that it bears little resemblance to the original; they'll continue to sell a ton of it, and the throngs will continue to believe they're experiencing the legend.

I'm not sure who you're referring to with "they" - Imperial or Mac Baren?  I work for a well-known brand and we do a lot of licensing - we let other companies use our property/idea/whatever, but you always have specifications to follow and can't just do whatever you want with the licensed brand. (Unless you acquire it outright as with the Heinz example).  

If Mac Baren is paying for the license to produce this stuff, was given the recipe by the licensor (and they follow it), its totally unfair to say they're just putting whatever they want in a tin to sell the name.  Perhaps you can argue that Imperial has f'd up the recipe to make it cheaper or easier to produce... but I just don't think any licensor would give the licensee a subpar recipe (or version of any brand) because it was "cheaper" or something like that - the licensor isn't paying for the ingredients, they'll just get whatever licensing fee or royalty based on how much is sold.  Basically, the licensor just sits back and watch someone else do the work to sell their products and get a cut of the cash.  (If the recipes have changed, my guess is that they are not just sitting on the old recipes...  they don't even have the original recipes - they may have changed over time due to availability of ingredients, price, etc - but what they have now *is* the recipe that exists.)  

Anyway, its definitely in their best interest to make sure the licensee is making good stuff that builds the brand and not the other way around.  Which leads me to...

These may turn out to be delicious tobaccos, but that's not the point, is it?

I may be in the minority, but that's all I really care about.  If you tell me Westminster is in a way inspired by the old Dunhill London Mixture it gives me a reference point even if I never tried that old stuff.  It builds another possible reason to try Westminster.  Or insert here any of the recent blends inspired by 759, John Cotton, etc.  The point is it may help as an entrance but once I've tried it, its a simple matter of whether or not I will continue to smoke it.

I respect the opinion of veteran pipe smokers who loved the originals and can't stand the fact that they're reproduced by new factories now - however, I've only been a pipe smoker for ~5 years and plan to be for the rest of my life, if able.  I'm lucky to have tried some of those old tobaccos but they were definitely before my time so I won't even try to compare.  I'm a young-ish pipe smoker and figure I'm a prime target for producers today, moreso than aging codgers who bemoan the loss of the good ol days.  [Please read the previous sentence as tongue-in-cheek.  I love codgers and can't wait to be one.  But the point is businesses looks forward, not back.]

I can't judge new Dunhill Nightcap/EMP/etc vs old Dunhill Nightcap/EMP/etc, new Balkan Sobranie vs old Balkan Sobranie, new Escudo vs old Escudo, new Capstan/TN vs old Capstan/TN, etc etc etc.  What I can say that all of those (minus Capstan/TN which I'll try sometime after the stampede slows down) are fantastic tobaccos to my taste, some of the best around.  The label on the tin has little to do with my saying that.  Maybe the labels helped me buy them in the first place, but if the product didn't follow through I wouldn't bat an eye at tossing it out and forgetting about it.

You're totally right about the fact that eventually if this stuff is good and stays around the old will be forgotten.  Maybe the consumers are stupid for thinking they're smoking the real thing... or maybe they're just enjoying good tobacco with a sense of history (with some evolution too, yes).  If the new generation of pipe smokers likes it then its a win for the companies involved and for those smokers who like it.  That's a win-win, and probably a win for the hobby and its staying power overall too.  Its only a loss with people who weren't going to buy it/try it anyway because its "not the old stuff".  Oh well.

Anywho, much respect for opinions stated here - but for me, I think this is a brilliant business move that will be great for Mac Baren, Imperial, SmokingPipes... and consumers who are interested in these.  I (personally) have no aversion to these, though I would prefer the perique TN as I just prefer VaPers!  Still, I look forward to trying them and will add them to my next big order of Cumberland and Samarra.  ;>

 

[Anonymous]

How can things taste the same? Why could we expect that?

There is the terrior that covers so many enjoyable sensations.

Annual Variance.

Processing consistencies over extended periods.

Then throw in our individual pallets as they mature/age.

All that it really amounts to is a bit of fun and a healthy dose of prejudice. I can recall very few tasting moments that have stuck with time that might be recognizable. And that is more feeling and a wondering if that duplicated moment would have the same impact today.

Maurice was full of crap when he said, "Ahh, yes, I remember it well."

 

[Anonymous]

If the char light smells (and tastes) like cinnamon buns still warm from the oven, it's still Three Nuns. If it doesn't, no deal.

:face:

 

[Anonymous]

Where the hell has that girl been lately, anyway?

THIS ^

:face:

 

[cigrmaster]

Greg's post hit the nail on the head. It is one thing to create a new blend and sell it on it's own merits, it is quite another to take a name that was synonymous with arguably the greatest Virginia/ Perique blend ever created, take out the Perique and still call it Three Nuns.  Now that I have read how Mac Baren was stuck with the Vabur version it is obviously not their fault. It is the fault of Imperial tobacco who obviously made a business decision to screw their long time customers and bait and switch their newer customers.  The new version may be a great blend but I will never find out. I come from a time when honor meant something and when you call something Three Nuns, then it better be made with the Perique from the original recipe. Of course crops change and there will be variances in the flavor of the end product, but a total disregard for the main ingredient wreaks of dishonesty.  If they someday change the name on  the new one, I would try it, but as it stands,  I will stick to my principals and boycott this blend. I may be cutting off my nose to spite my face, but I feel that strongly about it. 

On another note I have never tried the old versions of the Capstan Blue and Gold flakes but the new versions are outstanding. Now if they had changed the blends from straight Virginia's to English blends, I would feel the same way about those.

 

[JimInks]

Greg's post hit the nail on the head. It is one thing to create a new blend and sell it on it's own merits, it is quite another to take a name that was synonymous with arguably the greatest Virginia/ Perique blend ever created, take out the Perique and still call it Three Nuns.  Now that I have read how Mac Baren was stuck with the Vabur version it is obviously not their fault. It is the fault of Imperial tobacco who obviously made a business decision to screw their long time customers and bait and switch their newer customers.  The new version may be a great blend but I will never find out. I come from a time when honor meant something and when you call something Three Nuns, then it better be made with the Perique from the original recipe. Of course crops change and there will be variances in the flavor of the end product, but a total disregard for the main ingredient wreaks of dishonesty.  If they someday change the name on  the new one, I would try it, but as it stands,  I will stick to my principals and boycott this blend. I may be cutting off my nose to spite my face, but I feel that strongly about it. 

On another note I have never tried the old versions of the Capstan Blue and Gold flakes but the new versions are outstanding. Now if they had changed the blends from straight Virginia's to English blends, I would feel the same way about those.

 
What's worse is that Imperial did not tell MacBaren that the recipe had been changed. They didn't know until I told them.