Capstan & Three Nuns

[cigrmaster]

jim, that is amazing they did not know it had been changed. You would have thought someone had smoked the old version and new right away there was no perique in the new one. Someone did not do their due diligence on that score.  If Mac Baren was smart, they would tell Imperial that they are going to put the Perique back in and if they don't like it, see you in court. I am sure Mac Baren could produce tons of witnesses saying the original recipe had Perique and that had they known the new one did not, they wouldn't have bought the name. In reality Imperial should be grateful to Mac Baren if they restored TN to it's former glory.

 

[HCraven]

I respect those of you who refuse to buy Three Nuns because of the removal of Perique from the blend, and perhaps Jim's idea of coming out with a second, classic release of Three Nuns would work, but I really doubt that Imperial is going to reverse a decision made God knows how long ago and yank the current version just because of a few people squawking about it on forums.  After all, they've successfully sold this version of 3N in Europe for at least ten years, probably longer, and they just sold out a huge shipment of the same blend in an afternoon to a relatively tiny niche market in a country they haven't been in for twenty years.  Like it or not folks, my money's on the new blend sticking around.

Have I mentioned that it's really good?

 

[cigrmaster]

Yes they sold out of their first release but how many of those people realized they were not getting the original with Perique? Of all the tins they have sold all these years without Perique, how many of those people realized it was not the original? 

Imagine if Greg Pease had just switched out the Syrian Latakia he could no longer get and put in another type in his Ravens Wing and didn't tell anyone? He could have continued selling a very popular blend, but Greg has honor, he discontinued the blend instead of cheating people.

 

[monbla256]

Yes they sold out of their first release but how many of those people realized they were not getting the original with Perique? Of all the tins they have sold all these years without Perique, how many of those people realized it was not the original? 

Imagine if Greg Pease had just switched out the Syrian Latakia he could no longer get and put in another type in his Ravens Wing and didn't tell anyone? He could have continued selling a very popular blend, but Greg has honor, he discontinued the blend instead of cheating people.

Contrary to how some here feel, I don't think Imperial Tobacco has tried to deceive anyone with it's new iteration of Three Nuns considering that back in the late '70s when I used to smoke it (it was an occasional smoke for me) I do not recall EVER seeing anything as to WHAT tobacco's were in it. It was SAID by most folks ( retailers) that it was a VaPer and that's what we all accepted and went on our dumb happy way buying and smoking it. But this was pretty much as it was with most blends sold. They rarely gave much detail as to just WHAT the blend was made up of rather using terms like "satisfying, full, smooth blend of various tobaccos" etc. We relied on the knowledge of the retailer we bought from, and they relied on the veracity of the distributors etc. The only folks who DO KNOW are probably dead by know as they would have been the folks who physically mixed and worked the various 'bacs in it. And most of the "classic" blends/mixtures ALL went through various changes as they moved on with time due to many different reasons. So I would not expect it to this to be any different. JMHO :twisted:

 

[JimInks]

Yes they sold out of their first release but how many of those people realized they were not getting the original with Perique? Of all the tins they have sold all these years without Perique, how many of those people realized it was not the original? 

Imagine if Greg Pease had just switched out the Syrian Latakia he could no longer get and put in another type in his Ravens Wing and didn't tell anyone? He could have continued selling a very popular blend, but Greg has honor, he discontinued the blend instead of cheating people.

 Contrary to how some here feel, I don't think Imperial Tobacco has tried to deceive anyone with it's new iteration of Three Nuns considering that back in the late '70s when I used to smoke it (it was an occasional smoke for me) I do not recall EVER seeing anything as to WHAT tobacco's were in it. It was SAID by most folks ( retailers) that it was a VaPer and that's what we all accepted and went on our dumb happy way buying and smoking it. But this was pretty much as it was with most blends sold. They rarely gave much detail as to just WHAT the blend was made up of rather using terms like "satisfying, full, smooth blend of various tobaccos" etc. We relied on the knowledge of the retailer we bought from, and they relied on the veracity of the distributors etc. The only folks who DO KNOW are probably dead by know as they would have been the folks who physically mixed and worked the various 'bacs in it. And most of the "classic" blends/mixtures ALL went through various changes as they moved on with time due to many different reasons. So I would not expect it to this to be any different. JMHO :twisted:

I respectfully disagree in part. It may be true that many smokers in general have given little thought over the decades as to what was in what they were smoking, but some did. Also, you can look at the older Three Nuns and see the perique in the middle of the coin. A smoker might not have known what it was, but he sure would have noticed if the formula was changed by taste alone. I've been smoking Three Nuns since the 1980s, and when the perique was swapped out for the Kentucky, I sure noticed the difference before I smoked it. And, as I've a number of the VaPer version in tins in my cellar as well as Lord knows how many others who have it in theirs, it's easily proven that the new Three Nuns (Orlik and MacBaren) is not the same as the old, pre-2003 version. In fact, I smoked some of the old version earlier today, and finished off the last of my stash of Orlik's version yesterday.

 

[JimInks]

I respect those of you who refuse to buy Three Nuns because of the removal of Perique from the blend, and perhaps Jim's idea of coming out with a second, classic release of Three Nuns would work, but I really doubt that Imperial is going to reverse a decision made God knows how long ago and yank the current version just because of a few people squawking about it on forums.  After all, they've successfully sold this version of 3N in Europe for at least ten years, probably longer, and they just sold out a huge shipment of the same blend in an afternoon to a relatively tiny niche market in a country they haven't been in for twenty years.  Like it or not folks, my money's on the new blend sticking around.

Have I mentioned that it's really good?

I agree with all your comments for the most part. But Sutliff/MacBaren has shown they listen to customers, so perhaps a "classic" version may happen. I guess it'll depend of the legal contract. I do like the new version for its own merits, but it sure isn't as good as the VaPer it once was.

 

[JimInks]

Yes they sold out of their first release but how many of those people realized they were not getting the original with Perique? Of all the tins they have sold all these years without Perique, how many of those people realized it was not the original? 

Imagine if Greg Pease had just switched out the Syrian Latakia he could no longer get and put in another type in his Ravens Wing and didn't tell anyone? He could have continued selling a very popular blend, but Greg has honor, he discontinued the blend instead of cheating people.

 Contrary to how some here feel, I don't think Imperial Tobacco has tried to deceive anyone with it's new iteration of Three Nuns considering that back in the late '70s when I used to smoke it (it was an occasional smoke for me) I do not recall EVER seeing anything as to WHAT tobacco's were in it. It was SAID by most folks ( retailers) that it was a VaPer and that's what we all accepted and went on our dumb happy way buying and smoking it. But this was pretty much as it was with most blends sold. They rarely gave much detail as to just WHAT the blend was made up of rather using terms like "satisfying, full, smooth blend of various tobaccos" etc. We relied on the knowledge of the retailer we bought from, and they relied on the veracity of the distributors etc. The only folks who DO KNOW are probably dead by know as they would have been the folks who physically mixed and worked the various 'bacs in it. And most of the "classic" blends/mixtures ALL went through various changes as they moved on with time due to many different reasons. So I would not expect it to this to be any different. JMHO :twisted:

I respectfully disagree in part. It may be true that many smokers in general have given little thought over the decades as to what was in what they were smoking, but some did. Also, you can look at the older Three Nuns and see the perique in the middle of the coin. A smoker might not have known what it was, but he sure would have noticed if the formula was changed by taste alone. I've been smoking Three Nuns since the 1980s, and when the perique was swapped out for the Kentucky, I sure noticed the difference before I smoked it. And, as I've a number of the VaPer version in tins in my cellar as well as Lord knows how many others who have it in theirs, it's easily proven that the new Three Nuns (Orlik and MacBaren) is not the same as the old, pre-2003 version. In fact, I smoked some of the old version earlier today, and finished off the last of my stash of Orlik's version yesterday.

 

[HCraven]

I respect those of you who refuse to buy Three Nuns because of the removal of Perique from the blend, and perhaps Jim's idea of coming out with a second, classic release of Three Nuns would work, but I really doubt that Imperial is going to reverse a decision made God knows how long ago and yank the current version just because of a few people squawking about it on forums.  After all, they've successfully sold this version of 3N in Europe for at least ten years, probably longer, and they just sold out a huge shipment of the same blend in an afternoon to a relatively tiny niche market in a country they haven't been in for twenty years.  Like it or not folks, my money's on the new blend sticking around.

Have I mentioned that it's really good?

I agree with all your comments for the most part. But Sutliff/MacBaren has shown they listen to customers, so perhaps a "classic" version may happen. I guess it'll depend of the legal contract. I do like the new version for its own merits, but it sure isn't as good as the VaPer it once was.

I think your idea is really the only one that might work, Jim.  Give them a solution to the conundrum that allows them to potentially sell twice as much tobacco, and they might try it.  If we demand that they take the risk of changing the blend that's currently on the market and selling well, and I don't think they'll bite.

 

[monbla256]

Yes they sold out of their first release but how many of those people realized they were not getting the original with Perique? Of all the tins they have sold all these years without Perique, how many of those people realized it was not the original? 

Imagine if Greg Pease had just switched out the Syrian Latakia he could no longer get and put in another type in his Ravens Wing and didn't tell anyone? He could have continued selling a very popular blend, but Greg has honor, he discontinued the blend instead of cheating people.

 Contrary to how some here feel, I don't think Imperial Tobacco has tried to deceive anyone with it's new iteration of Three Nuns considering that back in the late '70s when I used to smoke it (it was an occasional smoke for me) I do not recall EVER seeing anything as to WHAT tobacco's were in it. It was SAID by most folks ( retailers) that it was a VaPer and that's what we all accepted and went on our dumb happy way buying and smoking it. But this was pretty much as it was with most blends sold. They rarely gave much detail as to just WHAT the blend was made up of rather using terms like "satisfying, full, smooth blend of various tobaccos" etc. We relied on the knowledge of the retailer we bought from, and they relied on the veracity of the distributors etc. The only folks who DO KNOW are probably dead by know as they would have been the folks who physically mixed and worked the various 'bacs in it. And most of the "classic" blends/mixtures ALL went through various changes as they moved on with time due to many different reasons. So I would not expect it to this to be any different. JMHO :twisted:

I respectfully disagree in part. It may be true that many smokers in general have given little thought over the decades as to what was in what they were smoking, but some did. Also, you can look at the older Three Nuns and see the perique in the middle of the coin. A smoker might not have known what it was, but he sure would have noticed if the formula was changed by taste alone. I've been smoking Three Nuns since the 1980s, and when the perique was swapped out for the Kentucky, I sure noticed the difference before I smoked it. And, as I've a number of the VaPer version in tins in my cellar as well as Lord knows how many others who have it in theirs, it's easily proven that the new Three Nuns (Orlik and MacBaren) is not the same as the old, pre-2003 version. In fact, I smoked some of the old version earlier today, and finished off the last of my stash of Orlik's version yesterday.

I wasn't speaking to whether the older version was/was not a VaPwer, which I'd have to say it was as I smoked it then as you did, but rather that a firm was trying to deceive smokers, which I don't feel is being done here. It's merely a tobacco firm doing it's business as many have done before and that the business has not, in the past, been known for a lot of detail as to what they sell. They are merely selling the blend as it has been blended recently, no great effort to "deceive" anyone. And yes it DID change in the recent past and the changed version was not as enjoyed so I stopped buying it. Doesn't mean it's not a good tobacco in it's own right. To expect a "classic" to taste as it did 40 years or more ago is really expecting a lot. One would have had to have been alive and smoking it AT THAT TIME to do that and that just don't happen. Some of us were fortunate to have experienced some of these blends "back in the day" as they say, folks now won't, that's life :twisted:

 

[JimInks]

Monbia256:
I have no doubt MacBaren was being honest, and never said otherwise. I believe the problem was/is with Imperial and Orlik. Nobody told MacBaren there had ever been another version. However, the moment Orlik got their hands on Three Nuns, they changed the recipe, and did not make an announcement to the smoking public about the change. When I first discovered the change in 2003, I contacted the retailer, Synjeco, and asked what happened. They claimed they didn't know there had been a change. I believed them. And yet, well knowing the formula was different, Synjeco never changed the product description on their page from then to now. I was not the only one who pointed this out to them over the years. And Orlik never responded to my questions on the subject.

 

[monbla256]

Monbia256:
I have no doubt MacBaren was being honest, and never said otherwise. I believe the problem was/is with Imperial and Orlik. Nobody told MacBaren there had ever been another version. However, the moment Orlik got their hands on Three Nuns, they changed the recipe, and did not make an announcement to the smoking public about the change. When I first discovered the change in 2003, I contacted the retailer, Synjeco, and asked what happened. They claimed they didn't know there had been a change. I believed them. And yet, well knowing the formula was different, Synjeco never changed the product description on their page from then to now. I was not the only one who pointed this out to them over the years. And Orlik never responded to my questions on the subject.

Sadly, that's buidness man. Move on. Companies do this sort of thing all the time, that's life . :twisted::twisted:

 

[JimInks]

You're right about businesses in today's world, but Sutliff/MacBaren may surprise us and bring out the original version one day. If that happens, there will be a feeding hoarding frenzy that will last a while.

 

[monbla256]

You're right about businesses in today's world, but Sutliff/MacBaren may surprise us and bring out the original version one day. If that happens, there will be a feeding hoarding frenzy that will last a while.

You are probably correct about the "frenzy" Oh well :twisted: :twisted:

 

[sisyphus]

Do you have any idea how little genuine perique is produced annually?
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/05/us/tobacco-lovers-discover-mystique-of-perique.html?_r=0

The stuff almost went extinct a few years back and now most of it goes in cigarette tobacco. Blenders have to use tobaccos they can source.

 

[monbla256]

Do you have any idea how little genuine perique is produced annually?
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/05/us/tobacco-lovers-discover-mystique-of-perique.html?_r=0

The stuff almost went extinct a few years back and now most of it goes in cigarette tobacco. Blenders have to use tobaccos they can source.

EXCELENT point ! Has happened before with blends and I'm sure was considered in this case as well.

 

[Anonymous]

A smoker might not have known what it was, but he sure would have noticed if the formula was changed by taste alone.

In selected cases, where there's a sudden and dramatic change, yes.


When the changes are gradual and incremental over the years, anywhere from not-so-much to outright No.


Varietal tobaccos have been disappearing for the last 30 years now, minimum. And even when they were still being grown, they varied from crop to crop, necessitating that blenders tweak their recipes the way wine producers do to maintain consistency from year to year.


:face:

 

[sisyphus]

and even with disappearing availability of component tobaccos, blends change over time. Ask any Balkan Sobranie smoker if the Sobranie of later years resembled the earlier stuff. I didn't see this kind of self righteous indignation over the new Balkan Sobranie, and it's Sobranie in name only.

I for one am interested in Capstan. I did not smoke the original, and I haven't smoked the Capstan that's been available for years in the EU. So that's a bad example. Let's try this, I love Germain Brown Flake. They haven't made any in over a year. Problem with sourcing? Didn't feel their Va last year was up to it? I don't know. I really don't expect Brown Flake to taste the same year to year because it's a different crop every year. There is a ballpark they or any blender shoots for, some years are better than others. Would I like Germain to release a batch of Brown Flake without the semois? No, because that is what makes it special and unique. So I kind of get the reaction against the new Three Nuns not having perique, but at the same time this tobacco has been available in the EU while we couldn't buy it here, and that tobacco didn't have perique either. 

At the end of the day it's pipe tobacco, and there will always be another excellent blend to replace an old favorite if necessary.

 

[Brewdude]

and even with disappearing availability of component tobaccos, blends change over time. Ask any Balkan Sobranie smoker if the Sobranie of later years resembled the earlier stuff. I didn't see this kind of self righteous indignation over the new Balkan Sobranie, and it's Sobranie in name only.

I for one am interested in Capstan. I did not smoke the original, and I haven't smoked the Capstan that's been available for years in the EU. So that's a bad example. Let's try this, I love Germain Brown Flake. They haven't made any in over a year. Problem with sourcing? Didn't feel their Va last year was up to it? I don't know. I really don't expect Brown Flake to taste the same year to year because it's a different crop every year. There is a ballpark they or any blender shoots for, some years are better than others. Would I like Germain to release a batch of Brown Flake without the semois? No, because that is what makes it special and unique. So I kind of get the reaction against the new Three Nuns not having perique, but at the same time this tobacco has been available in the EU while we couldn't buy it here, and that tobacco didn't have perique either. 

At the end of the day it's pipe tobacco, and there will always be another excellent blend to replace an old favorite if necessary.

All good points sis. Duly noted.

I have not had the experience of either the OR of 3N or Capstan, nor the present release. But I'll keep an open mind when I do catch up with it.

And I do have some blending perique which I can use to spike the bowl of 3N, just to see what difference it makes.

Ya,, not at all the same as the blends married together but still...........


Cheers,

RR