Italian vs English Pipes

[Anonymous]

The thread title is Italian vs. English Pipes.

(?)

:face:

 

[Zeno Marx]

Has anyone yet talked about oil curing vs air curing?

 

[mark]

,,, and the result of is that good information fades into oblivion (?)

What good information is it that has faded into oblivion?

I've been here a little while and observed (as you have) the turnover in members on the board. As new members come in, the information is passed on,,the questions posed are sincere, and the answers are offered to the best of ability, hopefully fostering brotherhood and sharing the enjoyment of the hobby. If the answer to a question is posted back in 2008 and the new brother doesn't find it, I don't see it as a problem,,,respond with the information, help the guy out,,,maybe make a new friend or learn something new when others chime in with their observations and experiences.

Now ,,where were we,,,oil curing vs air curing?

 

[Grayhackel]

Imagine my surprise at seeing this thread come back to life. I've been lurking, but not contributing as I haven't had anything cogent to say. As to "reviving" old threads, whats wrong with it? It seems better than starting a new thread on the same subject and cluttering things up. But thats just my opinion.

I've appreciated the various responses. Its not a question of which nationality of pipe is better, but whether they taste differently and why. If they taste differently and you like the Italian taste, more power to you. For the record, my decision is made. Its English pipes for me. Since the initial post, I've tried Castello, Cavichi and a couple of others. They are fine pipes and in some cases better made than many of the English pipes I've had. But they don't suit me. I've also narrowed my choices among the English pipes and am smoking mostly Upshalls, older Charatans and Comoy's. Plus a couple of Loewes I've come across. Ferndowns are ok, but too big for me. I've tried a couple of newer Dunhills, and while they don't particularly suit, they too are ok. Of my four Ashtons, two suit and two don't. Bottom line, its Upshalls and Charatans for me. And my one Former and two Bentleys by Former.

As to why English and Italian pipes taste differently to me, it may be all in my head. However, I'm intrigued by the proffered explanations. I have a couple of Vuillards with non-vulcanite and they taste more like English pipes to me. Plus, I have a couple of GBD's with perspex (sp?) that taste no differently to me than those with vulcanite. On the other hand, I preferr vulcanite for the feel even if it doesn't change the taste. Different sources of briar and the drill size make sense to me. I would think that different curing methods would lead to differences, but I like both air and oil cured english pipes although I haven't focussed on any differences between them. I will do so in the next couple of weeks. Should be interesting. I'm not familiar with Italian curing methods. And I wonder if the length of curing might be significant?

My thanks to those who have offered their thoughts and wisdom. Even though I've made my choice, I'm still interested in the reasons for the differences I discern between these pipes.

 

[cakeanddottle]

Undead threads freak me out!

You prefer the continual re-invention of the same few wheels then ? Which we've got no shortage of here, and the result of is that good information fades into oblivion (?)

:face:
CURMUDGEON

for f***'s sake, you're the one who revived the thread with your monologue on briar yesterday, then you cry about people posting in it.


Maybe this is why I am an infrequent contributor here.

 

[Kyle Weiss]

Aaaah! Yak loose in the forum! Someone get him back in his Rubber Room pen. :lol:

Too funny.

*steps in Yakpoop* Awwww, dang.

 

[Sasquatch]

So okay, let's continue this discussion of generalities and particulars of English vs Italian, because it's kind of useful and interesting.

English Pipes:

- "traditional" shaping - bulldogs, billiards, dublins,

- smaller sizes in general, smaller airways in general (ashton being well outside the norm)

- rubber-based stems - ebonite/vulcanite or cumberland

- tradition of oil curing, now only carried on by Ashton I believe. Briar is not native to England, so supply is 100% import through varying mediterranean suppliers. No such thing as distinctive "English Briar"

Italian pipes:

- "fat" shaping, tendency away from machine-frazed stummels

- Larger pipes, larger chambers in general, wider airways on most brands

- acrylic/lucite stems

- air cured briar, usually "local" supply



The tendency to strong flake in the English tradition and the need for many, many pipes, seems to have shown up in a tradition of smaller machine-shaped stummels in England, so shaping is in a sense fairly limited but fairly well done - it shows up if you mis-cut these pipes. The Italians lean more toward freehand production, so shapes range all over the place and shaping is neither "tight" nor "correct" on many, many pipes.

It's not a question of "better" - rather as Grayhackle so aptly put it, "...they don't suit me." This is what it comes down to.

I'm a big dude and a pipe abusing clencher. Give me a huge rusticated pipe with a lucite stem!

 

[Kyle Weiss]

...as a "holder" rather than a "clencher," (most of the time, anyway) I like the Italian designs a lot--in fact, a lot of non-English designs. What I've really liked lately are Italian (and other locales') takes on English design, which seem to me to be meatier and more pronounced in ways English pipes are typically not.

As far as method of manufacture, like air drying? Pfff, I don't know. "English briar," seems to be what manufacturers like in the grain more than anything.

Just tying to sort out the differences from my end. *shrug*

 

[riff raff]

I have a number of British pipes and tend to admire their classic styling (Ferndown, Dunhill, Ashton, Charatan, Comoys and the most recent, Upshall).

My oil cured Ashton and Ferndown are two favorites. The Ashton is a Taylor made '98 and took some work to make it a good smoker. The Ferndown was marvelous right out of the box.

The air-cured Upshall while smoking differently than the oil-cured is fast becoming my favorite smoker.

My one and only Italian, a Castello Sea Rock (fairly staid #65 bent Billiard shape) is also a fantastic smoker. But, I have to be careful how it is packed to avoid tongue bite on that wide-open draw. My Ferndown or Upshall just deliver no matter how careless I am on the packing. I'm glad to have the Castello and I'd say it delivered on the Castello mystique, but it might be a while before I buy another.

Favorite stem: the funky, double-comfort, rubber-like vulcanite on my Charatan After Hours billiard.

I have admired the Cavicchi's, but my next pipe will most likely be a higher grade Upshall, the craftsmanship my current S-grade estate is too good to not acquire another.

 

[PipePuffer]

I own some Italian and English pipes. While some of my Italian pipes are fantastic pieces of briar, I find myself more and more attracted to vintage English pipes. I like their classic designs, diminutive bowls, and soft bits.

 

[alfredo_buscatti]

I'm having difficulty with two members on this otherwise congenial board. One I shall not mention as he offenses have been few, but the other is Yak. I first found him uncongenial in a thread to which he posted in May 2011, using the word "clueless" to describe the posters to a thread about tobacco. No one is truly clueless, but more more importantly no one is such an expert that he acquires the right to utter blanket negations.

In this thread I take exception to his use of profanity, even if he did asterisk letters so that he couldn't be held accountable. I also object to his use of the word "stupid." No one has the right to use such offensive pejorative terms, and they certainly do not use them wisely as the weight of the term makes its recipient angry and defensive, unlikely to do that which its user would want them to do.

I'm not saying that Yak makes no valuable contribution, but I think he needs to have less ego, throttle back his all-knowing attitude.

 

[Kyle Weiss]

Just to add, though, I *do* love the simplicity of design and how English pipes put such subtle framing around astounding briar grain... it sounded in my last post that I was poo-pooing English pipes... I'm certainly not. I love a classic, English bulldog with a 1/8 - 1/4 bend... I think it's my smoking habits that tend to lean less toward them in general, but then again, I am just emerging into this pipe world. 8) Ultimately I think I'll have a smattering of most schools of art in pipes, and let each pipe stand on its own merit(s).

 

[Anonymous]

Briar is not native to England, so supply is 100% import through varying mediterranean suppliers. No such thing as distinctive "English Briar"

Some Dunhill advertising claims notwihstanding, the briar used by all of the classic English manufacturers came from one importer. The great majority of it was Grecian.

Grecian briar and older English pipes are synonymous.

:face:

 

[riff raff]

Briar is not native to England, so supply is 100% import through varying mediterranean suppliers. No such thing as distinctive "English Briar"

Some Dunhill advertising claims notwihstanding, the briar used by all of the classic English manufacturers came from one importer. The great majority of it was Grecian.

Grecian briar and older English pipes are synonymous.

:face:

In what era/time period would that have changed? My pipes are of a modern era (02 Dunhill, 98 Ashton, early 90's Upshall)
I don't really know what kind of briar was used on these pipes.

 

[Anonymous]

Up through and including around 1980.

:face:

 

[Grayhackel]

I thought that I read somewhere that the old Dunhill shell briars were made with Algerian roots and that the smooth finishes were made with a different briar which might have been Greek but am not sure. Wherever I read this, the author also said that it was the algerian briar that gave the shells their deep cragginess. Don't know if this is true.

 

[Sasquatch]

All Greek briar except the Algerian stuff. :suspect:

http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=48227

 

[Anonymous]

The Dunhill concern started a number of urban legends.

One was the "dead root" silliness (old, dead roots dug up years after the heath tree died purportedly made the best pipes). In reality, the boles fissure and split, making them useless.

Another was Alfred Dunhill's writing of how the best briar came from the heart of the bole (which is a reddish, foul-smelling pulp, discarded quickly).

A third was probably the oil-curing business (which none of their living former employees ever saw or knew about).

"Algerian Briar" was claimed by many during the golden age to be the best of all briars. Many insist that the Dunhill Black Sells of the patent era were made from it. Others in the briar trade say that no importer ever paid the least attention to where the stuff came from.

The reality was that Dinhills paid other makers like Blumfeld (BBB) more for their perfect stummels than they could make by stemming, finishing and selling them under their own names. At least some of them were imported from France.

FWIW

:face:

 

[riff raff]

So, what kind of briar are my modern British pipes made from?
Dunhill - ?
Ashton - ?
Ferndown - ?
Upshall - ?

Is there a chance there is no way to know?

 

[Anonymous]

You would probably have to ask them. But there would be a good chance that they either wouldn't know, or would only know what the importer told them. ("Tell the customer what he wants to hear" is a time-tested sales technique).

People familiar with the business pretty much unanimously agree that, once it's cut, there's no way to tell where a given block came from originally.

(With the growth of the high-end pipe crafting market, specialised wholesalers have appeared, offering dependably-sourced briar. So the big-name makers of today are in a different situation).

FWIW

:face: