Relationship of Water and Aging

[alfredo_buscatti]

Until recently jarring very moist St. James Flake, I had never thought about my practice of drying down the tobacco en masse. The reactions of several people made me think otherwise, but I don't find anything about the relationship of water and aging.

In my experience tobacco that was moist before jarring is moist 5 years later when that aging jar is opened. Whatever need aging has for water doesn't seem to impact the tobacco's level of moisture. If water isn't used by the process than I question why it is needed.

What is needed is sufficient air to fuel the aerobic phase of fermentation.

 

[MisterE]

Good observation about the moisture. I'd be curious if spme bone-dry tobacco would go through any changes in a sealed environment. Perhaps the mosture is necessary, but not in great quantities?

I got some 5 y/o FVF in a recent Yak bomb. What was in there was as moist as FVF right out of the box, but markedly different tasting. Seems like the changes did take place even if it's pretty much water logged.

 

[alfredo_buscatti]

What did turn up in my search about this topic was that mold grows more easily in wet tobacco.

 

[glpease]

Every living organism, including yeasts and bacteria, needs water to metabolize. Dry some tobacco, and put it in a jar. Leave it at its proper moisture, and put that in another jar. Come back in a year, and report the difference. It's an easy experiment.*

Raw tobacco is dried before being baled. This is done for several reasons, one of which is to prevent fermentation from occurring. No one knows how long it will be before the stuff is conditioned and blended, so having a 'shelf stable' product is important. Once conditioned, blended, cut and packaged, the whole micro-universe changes. Life begins anew.

And, yes, mold does grow more easily on wet tobacco, but proper moisture levels aren't the same as 'damp'. At 12-15%, most tobaccos are relatively safe.

*Yes. I've done it. Many times.

 

[Kyle Weiss]

This is just an educated guess, but water is also required as a way for microbes to travel. Dry conditions usually put the little buggers to sleep. If they can't eat, drink and move around, why bother? Hell, people are like that. :lol:

I was rummaging through the Tinder Box Reno's deep humidor recesses, where I found some very old bags of tobacco. Someone decided to store them in there a while ago! Many of them were sealed, but quite moldy. The mold was an interesting olive- and army-green color. Totally different look than bread, cheese and wood/paper mold. It was chunky, and somewhat dusty. While I'm sure there's 100 different (and 100 yet-undiscovered) tobacco molds, I'll never forget what at least one of them look like in case I ever think I may have a problem!

 

[glpease]

This is just an educated guess, but water is also required as a way for microbes to travel. Dry conditions usually put the little buggers to sleep. If they can't eat, drink and move around, why bother? Hell, people are like that.

Of course, motility is also dependent on moisture, but microbes don't need to move about a whole bunch in order to do their jobs. And, yes, some bacteria will go dormant in the absence of moisture, but most simply expire once metabolic function becomes impossible.

 

[alfredo_buscatti]

I dried down the first batch to about 8%. You can still feel a bit of moisture when you rub the flake between thumb and index finger. The second awaited this information, which I am so very glad to have received. Thank you very much, Greg. As there is palpable moisture in what I deem to be the dried down flake, I'm guessing it is good to go. On the other hand the other batch is probably at 17-20%, so wet that it might not burn. I'd like to bring it down, too. As it doesn't need much water to age, I'm guessing, I'd much rather shed the water now, at the beginning rather than having to fool with it later.

 

[glpease]

I dried down the first batch to about 8%. You can still feel a bit of moisture when you rub the flake between thumb and index finger. The second awaited this information, which I am so very glad to have received. Thank you very much, Greg. As there is palpable moisture in what I deem to be the dried down flake, I'm guessing it is good to go. On the other hand the other batch is probably at 17-20%, so wet that it might not burn. I'd like to bring it down, too. As it doesn't need much water to age, I'm guessing, I'd much rather shed the water now, at the beginning rather than having to fool with it later.

20% is far too high, and at that level, the risk of mold spores germinating is higher. But, 8% is actually pretty crunchy. Another concern with storing tobacco that's too dry is that it becomes very frangible, and any handling at all can cause it to break up into tiny pieces. Rule of thumb, in this case, applies. If you can squeeze the tobacco into a ball, and it springs back, it's good to go. If it stays in a ball, it's too wet. If it breaks, you know that already.

 

[alfredo_buscatti]

If you can squeeze the tobacco into a ball, and it springs back, it's good to go. If it stays in a ball, it's too wet. If it breaks, you know that already.

Great test, thanks Greg!

 

[Kyle Weiss]

20% is far too high, and at that level, the risk of mold spores germinating is higher. But, 8% is actually pretty crunchy. Another concern with storing tobacco that's too dry is that it becomes very frangible, and any handling at all can cause it to break up into tiny pieces. Rule of thumb, in this case, applies. If you can squeeze the tobacco into a ball, and it springs back, it's good to go. If it stays in a ball, it's too wet. If it breaks, you know that already.

This. Some tobacco I prefer in the neighborhood of 8% - 10% for flavor, but I have to manage the packing so it isn't burning too fast. Other tobacco I leave as-is for moisture, and the flavor is better in that range (10% - 12%). Anything over that is swampville. For storage purposes, though, the 10% - 15% (guess) seems to work okay. I live in a very dry area, if I have a really moist tobacco (that isn't in a sealed tin) I can get rid of any excess water pretty quickly. The "springy ball tobacco test" is pretty darned reliable.

Greg, thanks for the reassurance on the microbes. Too bad no one has done extensive research on who does what in the tin. Maybe it's like sourdough bread, your location having specific buggers that only exist where you are as you tinker with your leaf. :lol: C&D probably has "GLP starter microbes" on hand at the factory, right? :mrgreen:

8)

 

[MisterE]

The rolling it up in a ball is a pretty cool, practical method.

Okay, then. So how can you tell the difference between 8% and 15% or even 10%, say. Those measurements are pretty precise, so I'm curious as to how people arrive at them. :scratch:

 

[Kyle Weiss]

For me? I wildly guess based on the claims of the OEM moisture content, known or implied. C&D/GLP stuff seems pretty consistent, and I swear I read someplace they tin around 12% (verify, Greg?) *shrug*

Beyond numbers, I suppose someone could take tobacco totally dry somehow (obviously not 0%, but maybe, say 5%--any substance has a limit to how dry it will get), and keep it in a known hygrometrically-stable environment at a certain moisture level, and then take volume weighed at the beginning and the same volume after hydration, and get an approximate known value. That's beyond what I'm able to do.

I just know what smokes good as to how it feels and how it's reacted in the past. :lol:

 

[glpease]

The rolling it up in a ball is a pretty cool, practical method.

Okay, then. So how can you tell the difference between 8% and 15% or even 10%, say. Those measurements are pretty precise, so I'm curious as to how people arrive at them. :scratch:

The industry method involves heating a sample of known size in a vacuum oven, thus extracting the moisture. The difference is the moisture lost (along with some volatiles, but they represent only a small fraction), and the percentage of moisture can be calculated. Of course, this is destructive testing at its best, and is not recommended for home use.

At some point, somewhere, I published a discussion of moisture content and how it can be approximated ad hoc. I'd guess a google search would turn it up.

Yep. Here it is.

 

[glpease]

Greg, thanks for the reassurance on the microbes. Too bad no one has done extensive research on who does what in the tin. Maybe it's like sourdough bread, your location having specific buggers that only exist where you are as you tinker with your leaf. :lol: C&D probably has "GLP starter microbes" on hand at the factory, right?

No special cultures, but if the factory moved to France, I'm sure things would be dramatically different.

This whole microflora thing may be as important in tobacco as it is in Belgian ales, cheeses, breads, wines. I've speculated it has something to do with the 'national' character of certain cigars, too.

 

[MisterE]

^Also sourdough bread!

 

[alfredo_buscatti]

I received a pound of 1792 today. The cellophane that SG uses for its bulk prodcuts was absent. The tobacco is very dry, ~6%. Mike Rutt has agreed to a return given my argument that bulk tobacco exposed to the environment for a long enough period of time to become that dry would have lost flavor. However, Mr. Pease states that tobacco processors purposely dry out the tobacco, for a variety of reasons. Also, I remember seeing a video of the Mac Baren tobacco warehouse stuffed with bales of what I presume was dry tobacco waiting to be conditioned and blended.

You can't tell me that the big tobacco interests would dry tobacco and store it dry if it is true that drying and exposure to the environment subtracts from flavor.

Yes?

 

[jefe1037]

AB: Without a specific understanding of the science, lets compare this to flour and bread: flour keeps nearly indefinitely, but once baked into bread is extremely perishable. Does this help explain the practice of warehousing tobacco?

 

[glpease]

AB: Without a specific understanding of the science, lets compare this to flour and bread: flour keeps nearly indefinitely, but once baked into bread is extremely perishable. Does this help explain the practice of warehousing tobacco?

Interesting analogy, and not far from right.

Once blended, cased, sauced, flavoured, fermented, aged, tinned, whatever, things are very different from dry, baled, single variety tobacco.

 

[jefe1037]

AB: Without a specific understanding of the science, lets compare this to flour and bread: flour keeps nearly indefinitely, but once baked into bread is extremely perishable. Does this help explain the practice of warehousing tobacco?

Interesting analogy, and not far from right.

Once blended, cased, sauced, flavoured, fermented, aged, tinned, whatever, things are very different from dry, baled, single variety tobacco.

food science makes sense to me (love your food blog btw)

 

[Kyle Weiss]

I like the flour/tobacco analogy. I like that a lot. As a fellow food nerd, especially.

Meanwhile, I assume at least in part, besides keeping the product, shipping around large quantities tobacco laden with water is much more expensive, too. Water weighs a lot. That might have something to do with why it is dried when getting to the second stage of tobacco production, say, at a blender's location.

I'm okay when certain bulk blends come to me a little dry, and I happen to notice there's a little more in the bag. I can deal with adding a little moisture if needed. :cheers: The volatile compounds that are separate from the moisture content should be healthily intact, though. I like those.

8)