The Price of Artisan Pipes

[KevinM]

I find pricing paintings the worst part of the process.

While escorting my missus through various galleries, I've noticed that artists tend to set prices based on technique and amount of detail which roughly translates into "creative time invested." Problem is that it's possible to put a lot of creative effort into a painting that, in the end, isn't very good. I've heard painters say they destroy a canvas rather than lower the price for one they're not satisfied with. True or not, I can't say. Buyers are all over the lot, I'd say, but "Wow!" value plays a persuasive role. Some paintings just stop you in your tracks, and it can be hard to say exactly why. Like pipes, I'd venture.

 

[glpease]

I really don't see a problem with a craftsman asking whatever price they want. *shrug* No-one's forcing anyone to pay. If work is priced way above what the quality would imply, they will probably not be very succesfull selling their work, but if that's their preference then I don't really see a problem. I don't see it as arrogant either. A craftsman doesn't owe anyone anything because they have made something desireable.

I find pricing paintings the worst part of the process. I know I can sell with my prices, but if the potential buyer doesn't trust their own judgement and eye, they might be turned off by the lack of credencials. And some are not, it depends on the person. Learning to not to feel guilty about pricing as I see fit and just has been a lot of work. I don't owe my paintings to anyone with any price, even if someone likes them. I am far more willing to give a painting away than to sell it with a price I'm not satisfied with. Selling with too low prices would leave such a sour taste. I'd rather just keep painting and forget about selling than do a deal I feel would mock my work.

Perhaps I'm a bit biased here too!

my mentor told me that if you sell a painting for less than it is worth you not only devalue yourself, and your painting, but also your other customer's paintings. If someone really wants a work, and they cannot afford it, you can gift it to them, or give them a small discount but do not insult your other customers or the work

of course this all becomes subjective, but I get what he was saying

rev

When I was an exhibiting artist, that was my M.O. If someone really loved something, but couldn't afford to pay, I'd often give it to them. Partly this was because I wanted my art on their walls, not back in my own studio.

On the other hand, a woman came to me and asked if I could give her a little break if she bought three large pieces as an anniversary gift for her husband. Heckyeah, I gave her a deal, though I did ask her not to tell anyone. And, I went to her place to do the installation. That one sale made the show for me.

Pricing is an interesting thing. Here's an extreme example:

I once bought a Spanish Army surplus overcoat. The thing was really nice, and a true bargain at under $20. I got a lot of use out of it for several years.

One day, I was shopping in San Francisco with a friend, and she wanted to go into Neiman Markus for some unknown reason. Whilst she was shopping for chotchkies, I went to the men's department. There, on the rack, was the exact Spanish Army topcoat, only fitted with a Nino Cerruti label and a $1200 price tag. Same fabric. Same pattern. Same construction. Same lining. You know that if *I* could get the things for $20, they paid a lot less originally. But, it cost them a few pence to have that label stitched in..

(I briefly considered buying all the surplus pieces I could find, stitching in a fancy label, Atelier Gregoire, setting the price at $500, and putting up a card table outside the store...)

 

[Harlock999]

the prices being asked by relative beginners is both ludicrous, and insulting to those who have worked long and hard to establish their position in the market. In too many cases, I've seen copycat work with copycat pricing.

I was looking at the very decent work of a new pipe maker at a show once, and shocked by the arrogance of his pricing. I enquired over things like whom he had worked with, and the names he offered were other relatively new pipe makers, some of whom also price their work according to what better-known makers charge. Interesting.

If you really want to look at price and market silliness, look at electric guitars...

I've thought this for a while, but I don't think I could express it so eloquently.
New pipe artisans seem to popping up on the scene almost on a weekly basis, and some, not all, seem to be charging prices incommensurate with their experience level. In some cases, new carvers with less than a year of experience want to charge equal to someone like Claudio Cavicchi, or J.T. Cooke.
More than anything, I wonder who is buying, because the carver is free to charge what they like. Is there market speculation going on, with collectors wanting to get a piece by a hot new talent before his/her prices really go through the roof? Do pipe collectors see themselves as patrons, nurturing the talent of young artists, and willing to spend large sums on unproven talent to do so? And by unproven, I mean someone who may not even be making pipes in the near future.

As an aside, my band played not too long ago, and a lady asked how much our cd's cost. I told her $5, and she asked me why they were so cheap. I told her they weren't very good. She laughed and bought two.
Now, are my carefully handcrafted songs worth $5?
I couldn't possibly say...
Are they worth more or less?
Who knows...
Not being in a position of having to live off of my art means that I don't really have to decide what it's "worth"...

Oh, and guitar prices?
Yikes!!

 

[Dutch]

the prices being asked by relative beginners is both ludicrous, and insulting to those who have worked long and hard to establish their position in the market. In too many cases, I've seen copycat work with copycat pricing.

I was looking at the very decent work of a new pipe maker at a show once, and shocked by the arrogance of his pricing. I enquired over things like whom he had worked with, and the names he offered were other relatively new pipe makers, some of whom also price their work according to what better-known makers charge. Interesting.

If you really want to look at price and market silliness, look at electric guitars...

Is there market speculation going on, with collectors wanting to get a piece by a hot new talent before his/her prices really go through the roof? Do pipe collectors see themselves as patrons, nurturing the talent of young artists, and willing to spend large sums on unproven talent to do so? And by unproven, I mean someone who may not even be making pipes in the near future.

I believe this is exactly what is happening.

In addition, recently a well known author has stated that the reason some artisan pipe prices have gone the roof, is that artisan pipe collecting has become a popular fad among wealthy Chinese businessmen. He also speculates that when they tire of the flavor of the month, and possibly move on to another hobby as they have done in the past, the bottom may fall out of the market.

Couple this scenario, with other popular authors speculating on a particular up and coming pipe carver who's pipes they favor, and you have a situation that is ideal for some opportunistic entremanure to come along and try to capitalize on the situation.

However, the reality is, that there ARE some very talented up and coming pipe carvers, who are selling pipes currently, that are a fantastic bargin at their current pricing. As they mature, their work gets appreciably better, and there will be a transitory phase in their work, when some of their best work can be had for a song.

The fact that there are these type opportunities being offered at pipe shows, and some collectors are buzzing about specific carvers, means that there are opportunities for mediocre carvers to sell mediocre pipes at outlandish price points. I'm sure that seasoned pipe collectors can tell you many stories about pipes that were sold for exorbitant prices in the past, only later to see the bottom fall out of the market on a particular carvers pieces.

It's really no different than people buying electronics and such, and then only 2 years later seeing that same product sold for 30% of what they paid. The value of a dollar is relevant to the person who earns it, or never earned it, as the case may be.

In spite of the fact that some pipemen with poor judgement will lose thousands of dollars while enjoying the hobby of pipe collecting, I believe overall this is a fantastic time in the history of the hobby to be a pipe smoker and pipe collector.

Good old common sense is always useful in any endeavor, and the reality to it is, that a pipe is a piece of wood with a hole drilled through it, that you take one end, and set on fire. I expressed this sentiment to the owner of a pipe shop recently, and he looked at me like I just kicked his elderly mother in the stomach.

 

[Anonymous]

You guys are parsing the symptoms of the root problem : inflation.

Back in the 1960s, "smart money" started speculating in collectables -- old masters paintings, rare postage stamps & coins, Tiffany/Faberge stuff, Stradivari violins and similar items. Because they held their value against inflation and even appreciated.

A great Strad that sold fairly for $20,000 in 1962 now fetches somewhere around $10,000,000.00 I can remember a model home (stick-built, with a brick exterior) a builder put up that year with a sign reading "This house on your lot for $9,999.99"

It's a wolf pursuing everyone that's eating more and more of the weak, the unlucky and the elderly. What we're really discussing is whether this maker or that one (who has precious little choice about the costs involved) "deserves" to put bread on his family's table by making pipes and selling them for enough to make it worth his time, energy and cost.

And what a bummer it is that fewer and fewer people can afford them.

:face:

 

[KevinM]

Good old common sense is always useful in any endeavor, and the reality to it is, that a pipe is a piece of wood with a hole drilled through it, that you take one end, and set on fire.

LOL! Unless, of course, the wood is mature, flawless briar gathered by nude Mediterranean rustic beauties under a full moon.

My brother was once gifted a set of carving tools and was set to work by his wife making C'mas ornaments, toys for the grandbabies, bas reliefs etc. I told him he should look into pipe carving. since they can fetch decent prices. "Nah," he responded, "that's just too weird." Well, he's a blunt-spoken fella who would stick with cobs if he were a piper.

 

[Kyle Weiss]

One good thing about pipes versus art et al: very few pipemakers just starting out that aren't necessarily talented think of themselves as self-proclaimed masters.

I walk into countless cafes and art galleries where I learn some the pieces/photographs/sculptures on sale are school projects or university lessons, yet they charge full-blown price as if they were "someone."

I paint and do photography, too. I don't think it's good enough to charge much, if anything, because I'm still learning. An engineer, mathematician or computer programmer isn't going to sell his work (or his skill) solely based on things learned, but experience and imagination, and ultimately, application. Why should an artist? So I give my stuff away. I'd rather it be enjoyed than fretted over.

Pipe carvers, I feel most of the time, organically go through almost shade-tree apprenticeship and self-learning enough that the consumers of their wares (or pipes-to-be) know the difference. There is no wow-factor beyond the select crowd we have, and the market isn't saturated or plumped-up with stigma of a "pipe carver" like an "artist" is, and I generally think those of us, consumers and carvers of pipes alike, are a bit closer to honest in that comparison.

We're pretty lucky in that regard. Plus, pipesters of any sort often are more reliable. :lol: Ugh. Artists. Then there's musicians. :twisted:

8)

 

[KevinM]

Then there's musicians.

Heeheehee. I'll say. A friend of the missus is a music teacher/performer who, bless her heart, is sure that she's always about to be discovered, even though she's now in her early 50's and has been at it for 30 years. The other day she said she had a sign it might not happen. She's in a country folk band, otherwise populated by, in her phrase, "a bunch of losers." Last weekend, they were on stage in mid-song when one of the geetar player's pants fell down.

 

[Wayne_Teipen]

It's funny that I found this thread today. I've been working all day on making some sense out of how I price my own pipes. I'll be completely honest here and admit that I am a terrible business man. I just don't have the capacity for it and really abhor the business side of making pipes. With that said, in the past, I've always just sort of randomly priced my work a little lower than pipes I felt were on the market of similar quality. I'm always torn between making pipes that guys can afford and enjoy and making enough profit to stay viable, improve my tooling, and ultimately make better pipes from better materials. A good deal of the joy I get out of making pipes is seeing someone else get pleasure out of and appreciate something I've created. If it didn't cost me money to make pipes, that would be enough for me.

This seems like a good, safe place to discuss this and maybe get some of your input since the climate on this discussion is much more civil than these discussions can sometime be on the internet. I'm going to stick my neck out a bit here so please be gentle and not lop it off. Today, I feel like I've really made some significant progress in how I price my pipes. I've come up with a pricing grid that first takes into account the size of the pipe then builds on that based on finish and grade. After that, I take into account any embellishments I've used on the particular piece. I've also developed a really specific criteria for grading. Where I'm stuck is with what price to set my base price. Anyone have any thoughts? If it helps, I can give more details of my breakdown if anyone is interested.

 

[sisyphus]

I'll use the Dunhill example. Is that Dunhill really worth $600? Hmmm. All of their competition is gone. Look at similar pipes being made and honestly I only think of Ashton and James Upshall, oddly enough both of which also qualify as "artisan" pipes because one man is making the pipe from block and rod to finished pipe. The Ashton and Upshall product is almost as good as the Dunhill and occasionally better, and generally sells for about half the Dunhill value. In Dunhill's case, it's the white dot tax, and the fact that Sasieni, Charatan, Loewe, Comoy's, and Orlik no longer exist as the marques that made those names famous. If you want to buy an English pipe that is very well made with excellent stem work and has an actual link to English pipe making history, you buy a Dunhill. They're good pipes, not a good value IMO, and I own several.

As for artisan pipes, the best of them (artisans) produce pipes that are wonderful to smoke. I've had a few artisan pipes, and for the most part I can't say they were any better pipe than the best of what England produced back when that meant something. I have one artisan pipe that is a lights out smoker and looker. Hands down the best pipe I own. Just on a whole new level in every regard. It doesn't make me want to drop everything and collect nothing but pipes from that artist however. For one, I connect with English classics in a way that I don't connect with any other pipe. All of the modern artisans interpretations of classic forms just don't click for me the same way. I guess history and brand identity play into it for me.

That pipe is an exception. As a general rule, I have found that a $50 Comoy's estate offers everything a $400 artisan pipe does 4 times out of 5. Fortunately I am more attracted to the Comoy's, it keeps the pricetag on my pipe rack at a level I can live with.

IF a guy who smokes $100 Savinellis is going to make the stretch to purchase an artisan pipe, it's a big deal for him. Wallet-wise I mean. That $400 is a lot of clams for a guy who has a mortgage, a car payment or two, and a kid with braces. I think in general that the price of artisan pipes has spiralled out of control to the point of elitism. If you are going to make pipes and charge $600, $700 or more for them, you just put yourself in a very small market. It's exactly what's killed a lot of the good hi-fi companies. It's an ego thing on both sides, and I say that with full awareness that I like external validation for my PADs as much as the next guy, but there is a line where luxury crosses into obscenity.

I like that Trever Talbert has the Ligne Bretagne line. Almost anyone can buy one of those and get a little piece of French pipe history and Talbert all in one shot. They're fine pipes and worth every penny of the approximately $150 they sell for, but I wouldn't call them undervalued either.

So props to Trever Talbert for realizing the guy with less dough to blow on pipes is a bigger and just as enthusiastic market. Same goes for Jean Du Toit, whose Pietenpauw pipes aren't the prettiest necessarily, but the engineering is there and they offer a hell of a value to a serious pipe smoker with a thin wallet.

Short answer, greed is as rampant in this area as it is everywhere else. Very few men are making pipes that actually justify price tags that exceed $400. My opinion.

 

[the rev]

so perhaps you can put a dollar amount how much annual salary someone can make as a pipe pipemaker before you call them greedy? selling $400 pipes puts you at less than 100,000, is that greedy?

rev

 

[sisyphus]

I read your response and this quote immediately came into my head, so you'll have to accept this as my follow up.
Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply. -Stephen Covey

 

[Brewdude]

Mike, you may want to check out artisans like Mark Tinsky, Rad Davis, Brian Growley and many others on this site. All are talented pipesmiths and offer fine work for an affordable price.

Just sayin'.


Cheers,

RR

 

[the rev]

I read your response and this quote immediately came into my head, so you'll have to accept this as my follow up.
Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply. -Stephen Covey

Just because it came into your head first doesn't make it true John Jensen

please explain, how does wanting to make a normal living become defined as greediness?

rev

 

[MisterE]

I read your response and this quote immediately came into my head, so you'll have to accept this as my follow up.
Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply. -Stephen Covey

Best quote I've read in weeks.

 

[monbla256]

Been reading this thread for a fewdays now and one thing stands out in all the reply's. Their's some whinny folks out there :twisted: Whoever makes an item for sale is allowed to price them as they feel they can. The marketplace will ultimately decide the "level" price wise they will sell for in the end. Why does someone have to "justify" their pricing? Can I afford them, no so I don't even look at 'em. Can others afford 'em, yep, so they buy 'em if they want'em. I have to live within the boundries of my life so why get all in a tizzy about things I that are outside those boundries :twisted: Buy what you can afford and be happy with that :twisted:

 

[Harlock999]

Why does someone have to "justify" their pricing?...
Buy what you can afford and be happy with that

Absolutely!
And I guess my interest in this topic has more to do with the buyer's point of view,
rather than the seller's.
Namely, how does a buyer decide that a pipe is worth X amount...

 

[sisyphus]

It will never cease to amaze me that on a platform that is built on user opinions, many users get bent out of shape when other users express theirs. It makes us all look like a bunch of bickering old women, hence I coined the term 'the dickless old women of pipe smoking" to refer to that demographic a couple years ago on another forum

It's a hobby guys. We're all here because we share a common enjoyment. No one has to share your opinions and no one is forcing any on you. Being that certain of your correctness is a small version of what fueled the Inquisition. In a world of black and white there is no room for gray, which is unreasonable.

 

[the rev]

why is it assumed that people are bent out of shape? You made a statement, I challenged it. In my mind you dismissed my challenge so I restated it. I am not angry, upset or insulted. I disagree with you. I believe I am correct. And I honestly look to see why someone would think otherwise.

rev

 

[Kyle Weiss]

I read your response and this quote immediately came into my head, so you'll have to accept this as my follow up.
Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply. -Stephen Covey

Best quote I've read in weeks.

Agreed.

Sis, you shoulda just stuck with that one as a last response and walked away like a cowboy. :lol: But hey, comin' back in the bar for another drink is a tough thing to deny.

I do have to say, though, implying "greed" is a contemporary reaction that is popular category these days. It's bound to get misused here and there. I'd put my bet on the line that says 90% of the pipe carvers we could ever hope to meet or do business with are not in this category. Unlike others that can be broad-brushed with such accusations, we, the people, can actually talk to them and determine if they're greedy. Something tells me no one's going to say that directly to them, however.

Which means it likely isn't true anyone around here is greedy.

8)