The Price of Artisan Pipes

[the rev]

Look, I know this isn't black and white, and I struggle with it. It bothers me that most of my neighbors could buy one of my pipes. Does that mean I am greedy? How do I confront that situation? Is it right that certain people should "deserve" certain types of artistry? I hate the whole economic of it all.

But I just find it unsupportable to call an artisan greedy for wanting to make more money, by selling an object that is not necessary for life, to people at a rate that allows him to live a middle class lifestyle. If you are an absolute machine you need to put out a pipe a day at $400 to match what I make a day in construction, when you include health insurance and taxes. This is if all of your material is fault free, and doesn't figure in tool care, maintanance and depreciation. And I am way on the low end of my trade when it comes to pay scale. Why do we call a pipe maker greedy for wanting to make double that... but a manager at a bank is hard working for wanting to make four times that?

So no, there is no black and white answer. And some may think, pipe prices should not be that high and other think they should be a high as the market will bare. I believe people should get good pay, for good work. I do not believe the overwhelming majority of pipe makers are making as much as freelance plumber, or a middle manager at a tech firm.

rev

 

[MisterE]

Value is purely subjective. One man's fair is another man's greedy and the other's cheap. What greed is depends entirely on your point of view.

I say ask whatever you think you can get. Maybe you'll be pleasantly surprised. Or not. The market will surely tell you either way.

One of the earliest trumpet e-stores singlehandedly raised the prices of second hand instruments by marketing from a vintage angle. What previously was a "used" trumpet was now a called "vintage/collectable" model. In some cases they advertised at more than a new one would cost. Most people's first reaction was "ripoff". "Greedy salesman!"

What do you know? It caught on! Other dealers quickly saw that they could ask that much (or more) and get it. Now it almost doesn't matter if you buy new or used- the pricing is almost the same. All thanks to one dude who simply decided to say it's worth moar. Within the industry the guy's somewhat of a hero because the entire market almost doubled in value within a couple of years. For those of us that remember the pre-internet market, we only see overpriced used horns.

Is it fair? I don't know. Is it greedy? Maybe. All I can say is that's the way it is.

Substitute "trumpet" for "estate pipe" and the same phenomenon is being repeated.

 

[the rev]

I get that, that actually makes a lot of sense. However, I do believe this is different. We are not talking about pre sold products, we are talking about the direct ability of a man to make a very average living creating products from raw materials, which are also very artistic in nature.

rev

 

[MisterE]

^I think the principle is the same: It's worth whatever someone decides it's worth. The prevailing market will either support or reject that.

If you decide your pipe is worth $800 and people buy it, then that will be the going price. What it's worth is totally subjective.

 

[Vito]

...A good deal of the joy I get out of making pipes is seeing someone else get pleasure out of and appreciate something I've created. If it didn't cost me money to make pipes, that would be enough for me.

Wayne:

I don’t think I can answer your question directly, but I might be able to lend some perspective on the subject of pricing and profit as it pertains to the craft of pipemaking.

I usually try to approach things from general principles, so I’ll start there. “Profit” is a word whose misunderstanding is epidemic. It is almost universally associated exclusively with monetary gain, and not necessarily in a favorable context. But the truth is that profit is the motivation behind every human interaction, whether it involves monetary gain or less tangible rewards. (In fact, the intangible concept of profit is the motivation behind the vast majority of human interactions, but that’s a different discussion.) It is often the intangible concept of profit that provides the impetus behind the creation of some of the finest works of art, science, and craftsmanship.

Your statement (quoted above) illustrates that truth. For you the primary profit is the entirely intangible and subjective satisfaction of creating something that others find valuable. That’s your choice to make. For others, their primary profit might be the creation of the work for its own sake—that is, for the accomplishment of the art and craft and beauty inherent in the finished piece—without any regard for whether others get pleasure from it. If others happen to appreciate it, that's a welcome bonus, but it's not the principal driving force. I know for a fact that such motivation exists in the creation of many musical and scientific works.

But everyone likes to be appreciated, so I suspect that in most cases the primary intangible profit is a mixture of both kinds described above. That doesn't answer your question, but it might provide some background perspective for what follows.

…I’ve come up with a pricing grid that first takes into account the size of the pipe then builds on that based on finish and grade. After that, I take into account any embellishments I've used on the particular piece. I've also developed a really specific criteria for grading. Where I'm stuck is with what price to set my base price. Anyone have any thoughts? If it helps, I can give more details of my breakdown if anyone is interested.

All of that kind of detail might be useful to you in helping you develop a pricing policy that you believe is fair, and that’s definitely important for your own peace of mind and sense of integrity. Good on ya. The certainty that you’ve priced your pipes according to your conscience will carry you through the lean times, and give you the confidence to stick to your guns while others learn to value your work. But it’s mostly irrelevant to the folks who buy your pipes, who fall into three general categories—smokers, collectors/traders, and vendors. Here are the things that matter to them:

Smokers

• Do I like the pipe?
• Can I afford it?

Collectors/Traders

• Does it fit my criteria for "collectability"? There are innumerable criteria that might be involved here, but some of the more common are contained in the question, "Will it appreciate in rarity, value, or prestige (commonly known as ‘bragging rights’)?”
• Can I afford it?
• Do I like the pipe? – This criterion might rank higher with some collectors, but not necessarily. I’ve known some collectors/traders who acquire pipes they would never smoke or keep for themselves, but they recognize that others value them more than they do.

Vendors

• Can I make money selling this pipe?
• Can I afford to carry it in inventory until it sells?

That’s the pipe market, and the pricing and profit characteristics of each category are very different. In fact, the lines of demarcation between the three categories are somewhat blurred, because there are many smokers who are also collectors/traders or vendors. But if they know what they’re doing, they know how to keep those criteria in perspective, depending on which hat they’re wearing.

As a relatively unknown pipemaker, you’d better have intangible profit as a principal goal—that is, making pipes is a labor of love for its own sake. The market is so crowded that, unless you’re very lucky, you can’t count on selling your pipes for big buck$ until the collectors/traders start chasing them. Once that happens, the vendors will climb aboard…assuming you even want to sell your pipes through retail vendors.

But as many of the other posts in this thread accurately observe, even when your pipes are selling at prices the average pipe smoker considers “outrageous” or “exorbitant”, a lot of that money will be going to middlemen, not to you, unless you sell directly to your customers, à la Jack Howell, Trevor Talbert, Brian Ruthenberg, Larry Roush, …etc. (BTW, I’m not implying that those pipemakers charge exorbitant prices. I’m simply pointing out that they’ve found a way to sell their pipes at prices that their customers are happy to pay, and that keep them in the pipemaking business at a level that works for them.)

The stark, naked truth is this: People will buy your pipes if they like them. The ones they will like the most will be those with the best materials, the best engineering, the best fit, finish, and construction, and the most pleasing shapes—hopefully those will be the shapes you also like to create—at a price they want to pay. If you create imaginative, unique, or especially well-proportioned shapes, you’ll have an edge over less creative pipemakers.

But even with all those things in place, it will take time for you to build a market. The best way to do that is to deliver solid value for prices that the greatest number of people can afford. That’s a balancing act, but you’ll figure it out. The market will sort out the pricing for you, and will provide you with enough feedback to enable you to set prices that are the optimum balance between pricing and your productive ability. You will be perfectly justified in charging whatever yields the greatest balance between monetary and intangible rewards for your work.

In the meantime, if your profit motive is principally in the intangible domain (and it seems that it is), you’ll have plenty of reward to make the journey toward greater monetary profit worthwhile.

 

[KevinM]

My impression is that pipe carvers -- even Mr. Big Name Carver -- is in no danger of becoming "rich." Artisan pipes are, by definition, old style, slow, prone to fits and starts manufacturing. Ya gotta love it, because you're not in it for the money. (The Pipepedia section on the history of Italian pipemaking is instructive and always makes me chuckle.) The non-artisan, Henry Ford approach to pipemaking has a built-in price limitation, because it is based on a production line spitting out a commodity at the end. Besides, even "expensive" pipes look reasonable if you compare them to those who long for fine shotguns, bamboo fly rods or whatever.

One of the golf magazines ran a piece recently on new drivers for '13. I think the low price club was about $250 and the reviewers said it was perfectly satisfactory. The most expensive was up near $1,000 and the reviewers said it, too, was perfectly satsfactory, but the graphics would be sure to catch the eye of your playing partners.

Sometimes you pass the needs of functionality and you're paying for the demonstrated proficiency of the maker. Of course, the buyer has to be able to tell the difference, and it has to be worth the extra cost, which it may not be in all cases.

 

[Wayne_Teipen]

Thank you, Vito, for the thoughtful and thought provoking response. Lot's of good advice to consider. It means a lot to me that you took the time for such a well written reply. Thanks again.

 

[Vito]

Thank you, Vito, for the thoughtful and thought provoking response. Lot's of good advice to consider. It means a lot to me that you took the time for such a well written reply. Thanks again.

Dude! I just visited your website for the first time: http://teipenpipes.com/gallery/?show=gallery

Just based on the photos, you have come a very long way in a very short time. Many of your pipes are stunning works of pipecraft that I would be delighted to own. If they smoke as good as they look, you are unquestionably a rising star in the pipemaking world. My very best wishes for your growing success!

:joker:

 

[Briar Spirit]

This reply is not to anyone, it is my thoughts on the subject ONLY and as such are not directed at ANYONE, this is not a judgement nor is it a criticism, it is an externalisation of my own thoughts on my own feelings, nothing more, so don't go shooting me down in **** storm of bullets.........




The debate on what a pipe is worth should end with a calculation of the used materials, this tells us what a pipe is 'worth', this is true for all material goods, but this does not give us the 'value' of any given object.

The value of an object is reached when the seller submits something for sale, they place a 'value' on that object, the Market will either agree or disagree, hence a sale is made or the object never sells. How much a person estimates the value of an object has nothing what so ever to do with ANYONE other than the person selling the object as the person or persons 'wanting' to make purchase.

The 'potential value' of any object can become very high when one places a given object to the hustle and bustle of an Auction, here we then see just how 'valued' an object can become.

If a pipe carver wishes to ask $100 or $10,000 for a pipe they have worked on it is 'their' business and not 'ours', whether this pipe sells is 'our' affair, 'we' decide if 'we' are willing to pay the asking price. One is either willing to pay an asking price or one should simply move on without emotional reaction, of course, one cannot help feeling a little sting when one views a beautiful pipe and one wishes dearly to own such a beautiful pipe. Should we really berate a pipe carver for the price they are asking, for in such circumstances what we are really doing is displaying the emotional effects of 'that sting', is this fair to force this emotional reaction onto another person, especially when that person has done nothing more than display an item for sale.

I have toyed with folk on this subject in the past, with nothing more than light hearted jest in my heart, but I have seen it raise very hurt reactions, I have decided I was in error for my actions, regardless of my harmless intentions. I feel whole heartedly that a pipe carver has the right to charge what they wish for their work, I do NOT have a right to berate them for it, by doing so I am being childish in a form of "But I WANT IT", that's not fair nor is it terribly appealing as a personal trait.

For my part, I see many pipes I wish I could own, I feel 'the sting' almost every day, but then I can also step back and accept that I am being a bit childish and decide to move on.




So now I offer some words intended for all:

Debates about an individuals personal 'opinion' of an objects 'value' is a pointless endeavour, all it will ever do is raise tempers and make enemies out of friends, regardless of our backgrounds we are friends here, let us remain so gentleman and ladies.

 

[the rev]

this isn't a dig at you kirk, please don't take it as such...

you ain't no lady

rev

 

[RD]

There is a large array of artisan pipemakers today so can't we be a bit more specific about what different pipes are worth? From my observations it goes something like this:

- Pipemaker has a solid track record of making good-smoking and attractive pipes that sell reliably and have an established customer base - $150 to $200

- Pipemaker is well-known and has a strong reputation for reliable high quality, a recognisable style, perhaps a signature shape or two, is collected and sought after by some buyers, and gets talked about on forums like this - $250 to $350

- Pipemaker is generally recognised as one of the top artisans and has been for a while. Very distinctive style and a broad vocabulary of shapes, flawlessly executed. Has a wide and enthusiastic following of buyers who seek out his work and collect it. Never makes a bad pipe. Those that favour his style consider his pipes among the best available - $400 to $500

- Pipemaker is accepted as a master and his work has a level of quality, inventiveness and attention to detail that is second to none. Other pipemakers seek to study his methods. Everything he makes sells immediately and he cannot make enough pipes to satisfy the demand - $700 upwards

Of course a really nice, smooth pipe with special grain, for example, might sell for up to 50% more, and a rusticated or ordinary grained sandblast may be 30% less.

I'm generalising here of course but isn't that the sort of pricing that the market seems to support today?

The real question for me is when does a pipemaker raise his prices? How does he know the high demand is sustainable? How does he know how good he is and how the market views him? Even if he is "hot" right now, will it last, and would a price rise precipitate a drop in how much his prices are sought after?

I think in this case the pipemaker who has established his reputation over many years has the advantage and he knows he isn't a short-term phenomenon. For a relatively new pipemaker I imagine his pricing may be good as long as he is seen as a rising star (and therefore a potential bargain right now) but push things too far and he won't be selling like hot-cakes any more and the market will assume he isn't all that after all.

Are any pipes worth more than, say, $500? Yes, they must be because a lot of the pipemakers in this range can't keep up with demand and they have been in this position for years. And if you are in this position at the top of your profession then, yes, you deserve to make a decent living out of it.

In fact I would like to think that my favourite pipemakers do well out of it. They give me a great deal of pleasure and they deserve whatever success they can get and sustain.

 

[Puff Daddy]

Good arguments. Only thing I can add is it's not a black and white world when it comes to these things. Values fluctuate with the tide and some carvers are highly sought after for a while, then seem to fade away, both in value and presence. Others put out good under priced work for a long time before raising prices and are highly respected for their consistent affordable work. Still others price their modest work much too high. It's an ebb and flow of fluctuating group desire, save for the few rare masters (Ivarsson and Former) and reliable journeymen (Rad Davis). Trying to disect it and get an exacting answer is futile. Stuff is worth what it will sell for for those willing to pay for it, but it may not be worth that at all to those unwilling to pay. That's as simple as it can be seen.

 

[Vito]

My impression is that pipe carvers -- even Mr. Big Name Carver -- is in no danger of becoming "rich."

Amen to that, KevinM. :lol:

Truth be told, I don't see how anyone in any aspect of the pipe-and-weed biz is in danger of becoming "rich". The entire industry has been under increasing attack. On the weed end, here in the U.S. the supply has been attacked by the Feds driving the tobacco growers out of business through buyouts administered by the individual states. The U.S. once led the world in tobacco production, but as of 2009 was fourth, behind China, Brazil, and India. Between 2000 and 2009, the U.S. lost 22% of its production capacity.

Buyouts are only part of the cause. An aggressive social engineering policy seeks to reduce tobacco consumption through increased taxation. Inflation (a hidden tax) is another killer. Combine that with the decline in smoking and you can see the results in the tobacco industry. The number of tobacco-growing U.S. farms declined from more than 500,000 in the 1950s to less than 10,000 in 2007. There are some kinds of tobacco that are no longer grown, and cannot be obtained at any price.

Of course, inflation affects everything else, including the cost of pipes. Its effect is much more pronounced in the artisan pipe market. Increases in the price of tobacco have been mitigated somewhat by the economy of scale achieved through mergers and acquisitions, wherein much of the tobacco is produced by a decreasing number of increasingly larger companies. But there is no such economy of scale in the artisan pipe market, which by definition comprises a large number of individual pipe makers. Inflation hits them directly and immediately. The same inflation and other taxes that make it more and more difficult for you to afford their pipes are the same reasons why they have to add more and more to the price tag in the first place.

I have run the numbers on this, because at one time I considered pipemaking as an alternative source of income. I would have to sell my pipes at godless prices to support my family. Maybe after the kids are out of the nest and I move to someplace less taxatious than the People's Republic of Californicaty, I might reconsider it. But even then, it's not EVER going to generate enough income to make me "rich". And as the increasingly aggressive war on tobacco further reduces the number of smokers, the craft will become even less economically viable. "Greed" doesn't enter into it. Pipemaking artisans will have to sell their work for increasingly higher prices just to survive.

:joker:

 

[RD]

I agree. It's clearly very hard for a pipemaker to make a living from their trade, and few can do it full-time. Bo Nordh and Lars Ivarsson would have made a comfortable living once they were able to earn thousands per pipe and the pipe sellers were selling them for multiples of this, but they are extremely rare exceptions and even they weren't making enormous incomes.

I don't think anyone should go into pipemaking thinking that they will make a good living out of it. It's easy to see that the numbers just don't stack up. It's a labour of love and, for the lucky and (very) talented few, it pays the bills but not much more. The real reward is not financial - it is to spend each day doing what you love to do and engaging with customers who are enthusiastic about your work. And that's not a bad lifestyle, is it, for those who make it work?

That's just how it is. No point complaining that pipemakers can make far more money doing something else, or can't even cover the cost of their materials. If the economics don't work for you, and that's not good enough, do something else for a living and make pipes as a hobby.

The price of pipes is not going to go up dramatically. There are plenty of cheap ways to get a good smoke (estates, cobs, etc.) so the market will only bear so much.

 

[Kyle Weiss]

...so what I'm gathering here is there's a few that feel alienated by a pipe's price (being out of their particular reach) versus the pipe's beauty and allure, and are taking an accusatory position toward the creator? If that's the train of thought, let's sharpen our pitchforks and go for the guys who buy them, for it is they who determine the price and hold them above our heads, teasing us! To arms, Brothers!

It's a good thing we don't do this with women, you know, admire them so much from afar, wishing we were charming/handsome/powerful enough to gather them like figs...maybe settling for a dried raisin instead...and getting all uppity about it...

...oh wait...never mind. Well, when we genetically re-sequence our youth, we'll make sure they all can get the girl and each one will have an $1,000 pipe. I doubt the carvers will object to that, either. Why not? I'll vote yes.

:lol:

 

[KevinM]

Extrapolating the "value" of one activity by comparing it to another can be misleading, even though it's always tempting. A unionized production line employee makes more than an artisan pipemaker, but union scale is often quite a a bit inflated and the difference is subsidized by the consumer. The numbers aren't absolutes. Someone who can hit only net firing 3-pointers may make a lot of dough without feeding the hungry or healing the sick, but there are aspiring basketball players aplenty who will one day soon inevitably be working in call centers. If you're hiring a band for your daughter's wedding, you can check what Cold Play is getting these days, or you can hire the local glorified garage band. Your choice. The value of a commodity in a free market is what a buyer is willing to pay for that particular commodity. Markets are usually disease spreading, cold-hearted *******, but there they are.

 

[Kyle Weiss]

Markets are usually disease spreading, cold-hearted *******, but there they are.

Something tells me the disease is akin to hypochondria before the market opens, but...

...sailors fresh from the boat pull up to port, have a weekend, come back with sores. Blame the port, blame themselves, blame the girl, blame the microscopic: some need a good antagonist at the end of the day.

I'm blaming the pipes. I'd never lust after them if they weren't so pretty. Initiative to force a quota of ugly pipes from master carvers? I vote yes, again.

:lol:

 

[Slide]

What would I do if I had that talent? How would I price my work? Probably the same as the makers about whose prices I write.

Same here. I know what my time is worth to me. Unfortunately the value of my time as a carver would not come close to approaching that.

My pipe collection is built on the benefits of the economies of scale and the estate market.

Many of the artisan pipes are priced much higher than I am willing to pay. I don't lose any sleep over it.

I could pay it, but I choose not to.

I view myself as a smoker versus a collector. I have a price point that at this time excludes most of these pipes. Most but not all.

That said there are a couple of carvers whose work exceeds that price point whose pipes I will probably buy one day. Those carvers are on this board. I will buy their pipes one day because I feel like I know them a little. And that little bit I know about them I like.

So one day when I'm old and on my last leg I can fire up a bowl and say, "The Rev carved this pipe for me..."

 

[alfredo_buscatti]

I will maybe spend $500 on a pipe, at some point. But a financial event comparable to the Virgin Mary's appearance at Lourdes awarding me great gobs of cash would have to occur before I'd spend $1000, especially when I can get an off-brand pipe in very good shape off ebay for $50.

 

[Vito]

...The value of a commodity in a free market is what a buyer is willing to pay for that particular commodity.

If by "value" you mean "price" (and that's by far the most common way of measuring value), then verily, thou has spoken the plain truth.

I suppose there is some kind of unspoken implication (or perhaps it's just my own inference) in this thread that there is something other than a free market that should determine the price of any commodity (including pipes). The myriad attempts to do just that have proven themselves to be so universally success-proof that anyone who believes otherwise is simply not in possession of all the facts, or is determinedly refusing to consider them in the service of some prejudice or agenda.

A free market often means I can't have everything I want right when I want it. I can whine, or grow up and face reality. I choose the latter; on balance, that's a condition I can live with. The mischief (at best) and downright evil (at worst) that always results from tampering with a free market inevitably is worse than whatever temporary inconvenience I have to endure while the free market corrects itself.

The upshot: Freedom is sometimes inconvenient, but it beats the alternative.

I will maybe spend $500 on a pipe, at some point. But a financial event comparable to the Virgin Mary's appearance at Lourdes awarding me great gobs of cash would have to occur before I'd spend $1000, especially when I can get an off-brand pipe in very good shape off ebay for $50.

That is an utterly practical and sensible approach. If your aim is to have the best smokes for the least outlay of cash, you never have to spend more on a pipe than the cost of a pound of quality pipeweed. Aesthetics cost extra. :mrgreen:

:joker: