The Price of Artisan Pipes

[the rev]

I am a master craftsman in Drywall mudding and texturing. I have also become pretty darned close to master craftsman status in restoration work, which includes carpentry, wood finishing, plaster, painting ect. I will give you a few examples:

When working in a extremely wealthy gated community in Southern California on a huge custom home I was called in to prepare the ceiling in the master bathroom as it was to receive a high gloss sprayed on finish, which would basically become similar to a car finish. Out of everyone in the company they knew only I could get the ceiling smooth enough and work with the painters to prepare a proper prep for a legitimate finish.

I worked on numerous houses that had textured walls, that not only had textures but also many layers of paint, sometimes with extremely different porosity, I could make the textures work using techniques but also the time learned pressure and angle of knife to match these textures so when painted nobody could tell where the patches were.

Right now I have been given the oversight of the restoration of a Greene and Greene home that is of such historical value that it will upon our completion be open to the public and the subject of a publication. In this job I am matching, recreating, reading old plans, figuring out how to use archived photos, microscopic cameras and century old color systems ect.

The pipe makers that I see as master craftsman are both incredibly efficient, and also artistically and creatively brilliant. They have an eye for flow, line, composition, color and texture. Some are willing and able to push the boundaries of what pipes should be, like Misha, and Christian from Tarock briar, some work within the general framework but let us see it in bold new ways, like Todd Johnson, Florov, Eltang and many others, and then there are those that make perfectly engineered, elegant designs that make us see the older, traditional shapes with awe.

There are three things that I am looking for in a mentor for pipe making:

1. someone who looks at creation as a spiritual exercise
2. someone who understands the engineering and efficiency issues to increase my quality and productivity
3. someone who pushes me to not be bound by convention, and explore what can be

rev

 

[Zeno Marx]

Strangely, I rarely think about how much money others are making, or whether someone is, or is not, making a decent living doing what they've chosen to do.

I don't find this strange at all. I don't feel it is my business, and though I understand why someone would "worry" about people involved with something they enjoy and/or love, I still feel it is beside the point and none of my business. It's none of my concern when I'm in the market to purchase something. As a purveyor, that is part of their job. It's not any of mine. And honestly, I find it ludicrous and absurd to put that burden on my mind as part of the consumer audience. "Oh, carver X, I couldn't possibly buy your pipe. You have it underpriced, and it doesn't sit well with my conscience." Yeah, I guess I'm a bit more Darwinian than that.

 

[the rev]

but neither are you calling people greedy for charging an amount that is more than you can or want to pay.

rev

 

[KevinM]

Love the comments on Italian carvers which seems to me an example of the discussion form fitting the subject. I'd like to make a movie of post-war Italy as seen in the permutations of pipe manufacture

One of my fav pipes is a natural Dublinish Sav Artisan, handmade (true, it doesn't say how many hands or whose they were). The straight grain and design is plumb beautiful. However, the tobacco chamber is noticeably off center, and a ridge at the lower bowl is just slightly higher on one side than the other. When I smoke this pipe, I imagine the carver(s?) having just returned from lunch where he/they downed a bottle of chianti. If the pipe were perfect, it would seem more manufactured, less created, and be somehow less endearing to me.

I wouldn't pay more for an imperfect pipe, but I might like it better than the next one that carried no imperfections. Yinz have heard the saying that, "The perfect is the enemy of the good." Good is fine with me.

I'd do a 'graph developing this point by comparing it to guys' oft-noticed preference for cute rather than gorgeous females, but there's probably no need

 

[Kyle Weiss]

Does anyone actually haggle a little with their artisans of choice, those that do buy them regularly? In my experience, aside from pipes, those that make or even generally sell things will happily give discounts for being a good, regular customer, arranging some sort of trade or deal, or sometimes, simply by asking them. "Sticker shock" from what a carver determines is the price of their pipe may scare the sh*t out of people, but they're also swell guys that just might knock off a certain percentage.

I mean, the Rev is going to charge me 600% over what he'd normally charge because he's my Brother here and we're both arsehats, so anything can happen. :lol: :heart:

8)

 

[Wayne_Teipen]

Does anyone actually haggle a little with their artisans of choice, those that do buy them regularly? In my experience, aside from pipes, those that make or even generally sell things will happily give discounts for being a good, regular customer, arranging some sort of trade or deal, or sometimes, simply by asking them. "Sticker shock" from what a carver determines is the price of their pipe may scare the sh*t out of people, but they're also swell guys that just might knock off a certain percentage.

I mean, the Rev is going to charge me 600% over what he'd normally charge because he's my Brother here and we're both arsehats, so anything can happen. :lol: :heart:

8)

That's a good point, Kyle. I've been surprised at pipe shows at the response I get when I tell a potential buyer that I will make them a deal. I've had some refuse and pay full price. I love to haggle/barter especially at pipe shows but it seems so few are willing.

 

[Rad Davis]

Sure. If you're good enough to.

But few makers have your hand-eye-spatial sense co-ordination.

(I suspect that most of them skirt this in the guise of "creativity").

In a production shop, how many employees fit your description ?

And how much easier / more efficient is the fraze-&-finish strategy when you're managing maybe ten or fifteen workers ?

In business terms, it's a no-brainer.

:face:

Of course the fraze-&-finish strategy is more efficient and economical, but that isn't what I was addressing.

My point was that artisans can and do make repeat shapes all the time. J.T. Cook made 250 straight billiards for the very first P&T pipe of the year. Mark Tinsky has his catalog shapes (more or less a shape chart) on his site. Any artisan maker who makes a POY or similar has to be able to repeat a shape with consistency. Not everyone can do it, but there are plenty out there who can.

I think Mr. Savinelli may have been being a bit disingenuous with his statement. Artisan makers can't do repeat shapes and sell them for $60-100, but they can do them.

Disclaimer: I have no idea how Castello goes about making their pipes.

Rad

 

[Anonymous]

We're on the same page then.

And for my own part, I would reserve the term "Master" for precisely such people. Whether, like Cavicchi, they use shortcuts that show in the polishing, stemming & finishing stages, or not.

I've read where an art patron in Renaissence Florence decided to have an artist competition. There were easels set up with paper & charcoal crayons for the contestants. Time limit was one hour.

Raphael (I think it was) sat and watched the others until the last of the sand was running out of the hour glass. Then he walked over to his easel and drew a perfect circle. Freehand.

He won by unanimous consent.

:face:

 

[Zeno Marx]

any carver, distributor, trader, collector, store, or otherwise who would be offended by an offer, which is essentially a counter-offer, is someone I'd rather not support. That may sound harsh, but it's really how I feel. That shouldn't imply that I always counter-offer. I don't. Sometimes the set price and my perceived value is in line, and I don't disrespect that meeting. But I'm also not one to scoff at an opportunity to make an offer. If I see a pipe laying around for a while, I make a counter-offer. It only makes sense for everyone. The market is saying it is either overpriced or undesirable, and the person holding it isn't benefiting from it sitting there, either. I think we talked about this last year in another thread. It's a good business lesson to learn to not sit on stock. There's a point when it degrades your business and so begins the slide downhill. Better to get something out of it than nothing. Take that mistake and learn from it and reinvest in more product that hopefully doesn't prove to be another mistake. Basic business 101.

I should also add that I always preface my counter-offer with polite investigation. "Would you be insulted if I was to make you an offer?" There is etiquette to it. Nobody appreciates a bull in the china shop.

 

[Puff Daddy]

So Zeno, you're saying I need work on my opening line of "That piece of crap ain't worth more n a hunnert! You should thank me to take it off yer hands"

 

[Vito]

So Zeno, you're saying I need work on my opening line of "That piece of crap ain't worth more n a hunnert! You should thank me to take it off yer hands"

No, PD. Zeno's saying you should try, "Would you be insulted if I said that piece of crap ain't worth more n a hunnert, and you should thank me to take it off yer hands?" See? Then if the vendor says, "Yes, I'd be insulted if you said that", then you can just say, "OK...then I won't say it."

:joker:

 

[Puff Daddy]

:cheers: :lol!:

 

[Harlock999]

Disclaimer: I have no idea how Castello goes about making their pipes.

Rad

Quite happily, while grooving to Phil Collins, apparently... 8)
https://www.brothersofbriar.com/t12728-castello-videos?highlight=castello

 

[Rad Davis]

We're on the same page then.

And for my own part, I would reserve the term "Master" for precisely such people. Whether, like Cavicchi, they use shortcuts that show in the polishing, stemming & finishing stages, or not.

I've read where an art patron in Renaissence Florence decided to have an artist competition. There were easels set up with paper & charcoal crayons for the contestants. Time limit was one hour.

Raphael (I think it was) sat and watched the others until the last of the sand was running out of the hour glass. Then he walked over to his easel and drew a perfect circle. Freehand.

He won by unanimous consent.

:face:

That artist was Giotto: http://100swallows.wordpress.com/2007/09/14/giottos-o/

Ironically, Raphael's work was sort of like the "artisan pipe maker factories": "After his early years in Rome much of his work was self-designed, but for the most part executed by the workshop from his drawings, with considerable loss of quality." :lol:

Rad

 

[MisterE]

Good thing they don't do with pipes what they did to poor Fillipo Collins! :lol!:

 

[MisterE]

Not to get too far off topic, as Peeb's recently resurrected thread admonishes. But...

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/eAhfZUZiwSE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>

 

[Zeno Marx]

So Zeno, you're saying I need work on my opening line of "That piece of crap ain't worth more n a hunnert! You should thank me to take it off yer hands"

It's all in the delivery, isn't it? Said with a smile, it could be endearing. After all, you are about to spend your hard-earned money. An offer is a privilege. It's the potential of you spending your money with them and not someone else. To me, that says something. But I'm old school. There's no such thing as a stupid question, and the customer is always right. I was lucky enough to work for people who felt the same way, and when I ran my businesses, I came from that same perspective. A customer could never insult me with an offer or different idea. It's a cold, dry exchange. My emotions were elsewhere.

 

[Harlock999]

Good thing they don't do with pipes what they did to poor Fillipo Collins! :lol!:

Poor Phil really isn't doing too well these days, which is a shame. I really like the guy.
And man, I had no idea about circle drawring contests!
I need to get with it!
Anyway...
So what's the verdict?

 

[Kyle Weiss]

So Zeno, you're saying I need work on my opening line of "That piece of crap ain't worth more n a hunnert! You should thank me to take it off yer hands"

No, PD. Zeno's saying you should try, "Would you be insulted if I said that piece of crap ain't worth more n a hunnert, and you should thank me to take it off yer hands?" See? Then if the vendor says, "Yes, I'd be insulted if you said that", then you can just say, "OK...then I won't say it."

:joker:

:lol: Guffaws were had.

8)

 

[Wayne_Teipen]

So Zeno, you're saying I need work on my opening line of "That piece of crap ain't worth more n a hunnert! You should thank me to take it off yer hands"

No, PD. Zeno's saying you should try, "Would you be insulted if I said that piece of crap ain't worth more n a hunnert, and you should thank me to take it off yer hands?" See? Then if the vendor says, "Yes, I'd be insulted if you said that", then you can just say, "OK...then I won't say it."

:joker:

:lol: Guffaws were had.

8)

+me

I don't care who you are, that's funny stuff. :lol: