The Price of Artisan Pipes

[Anonymous]

Ironically, Raphael's work was sort of like the "artisan pipe maker factories": "After his early years in Rome much of his work was self-designed, but for the most part executed by the workshop from his drawings, with considerable loss of quality."

The pattern endures forever :lol:

Because it works.

:face:

 

[cigrmaster]

I have been buying artisan made pipes since 2000 and have bought from many different ones. In the beginning I was buying from the likes of Former, Rainer Barbi, Kurt Balleby, Peter Matzhold and other European makers.

Fast forward to 2012 when I got back into my pipes after a few years off, I began collecting American artisan made pipes starting with Rad Davis (August of 2012). I was blown away at the smoking properties of that first pipe and I rated it higher than any other maker or factory pipe I had ever smoked. So I began my journey into American artisan pipes and now have 13 Rad's, 2 Ruthenbergs and one each from Jody Davis, Mike Butera, Scott Thile, Bruce Weaver and Steve Morrissette.To a one they are all great smoking pipes that I would stack against any of the above mentioned European carvers. In my opinion when it comes to price and quality no one is pricing his pipes more competitively than Rad Davis.

Rad, don't read this. When I buy one of his brand new pipes for 350-400, I feel like I am robbing the guy. When I look at the quality of his blasts and the way his pipes smoke, I think he could be charging way more especially when you compare him to so many new comers and even old timers. A new blasted pipe from Former is 700.00 plus and I can tell you a Rad will out smoke a Former( I have owned 6 in the past). When I look at some new guy charging 350.00 for a blast that looks like shit compared to a Rad, I shake my head and say how dare he.Today for example smokingpipes listed some new pohlmann's on their site and he is charging 750.00 for a bent apple that is no where near as good looking as the straight Apple I just got from Rad for 395.00. I know a guy who recently bought two pohlmanns and he said they were both totally wet smokers and he wished he had never bought them. This guy knows his pipes and has a hell of a collection so I trust him.

So yes I think that many artisans are charging way too much and many have no business doing it. It all comes down to what you are willing to pay and what your level of expectations are in a pipe. I am a picky son of a bitch, I want my pipes to be light as a feather, hold a good amount of tobacco, be incredibly comfortable, have incredible stem work done and lastly look freaking awesome. I can buy a Rad Davis group 5 that will look better and smoke better than any Dunhill and pay less money so for me it is a no brainer.

In terms of pipe makers making a living, I don't know of any that are driving a Bentley and living in a penthouse on Park Ave. The guys who put out a quality product year after year, pipe after pipe will do ok, but none will get rich. I think the great ones do it because it is their passion and they realize they will never get rich. They make a decent living and love what they do which for many people is as good as it gets. I think the new guys should look at Rad's work as a baseline and if their pipes do not come close to his, then they should price them accordingly. They should not be looking at a pohlmann and saying well he is getting 750.00 so I can charge 350.00.

I will say that everyone of my artisan made pipes smoke better than every factory pipe I have smoked except Castello. If Castello ever used vulcanite stems I would rate them as high, the ones I have smoked( over 10 throughout the years) have all been incredible smokers.

 

[Anonymous]

Prices set by new carvers. Again a topic that can stir great emotion. Let me tell you that the older school collectors are not going to drop $300.00 + dollars on a new carver, until they can see some consistency in quality, and get praised reviews from collectors they respect. Think about it. Why should any collector be willing to spend $300.00 + dollars on your pipe, when the choice to buy something else, tried and true, is priced less? I have heard the excuses. It takes so many hours and materials cost X, Y and Z. If you have built a collecting base of clients that find your products interesting and are willing to pay top dollar I applaud you. Just remember that pipe collectors can be fickle and most have collections that revolve. Without some new clients, you may find yourself without any buyers. It is much easier to start with reasonably priced pipes and as your clientele grows, as does you skill, slowly raise prices. Once you set the bar, it's not so easy to reduce prices. I also suggest that you learn to carve classic shapes. Learn it and learn it well. While the fancy shapes allow you a wide range of options, the largest selling shape is still the billiard. Why do carvers such as Jess, Lars, Sixten, Tom Eltang, Former, Tonni, and the list goes on, carry such high respect by collectors? While they can create a fancy shape better than most, they can also carve a classic shape. These men cut their teeth on classic shapes. I can bet that if you asked each man, they'd tell you that before they were allowed to create anything unique, they cut hundreds of classic shaped pipes. Cut so many that they understood each shape's intricate secrets.

:face:

 

[Sasquatch]

This topic is very interesting to me, and I've very intentionally kept my nose out of it.

For those who don't know me well enough to understand where I'm coming from here, I'll just quickly address that: I started making pipes about 5 years ago. Started out making ugly pipes, as we all do. Sold them for nothing, covered material costs. Kept at it. Talked to pipe makers, worked very hard at understanding what makes pipes look nice, what a "well carved" pipe is supposed to be, and yet tried to balance all that with my own ideas or "style". This is slippery ground. Over five years or so, I've sold a few hundred pipes, I don't really keep track, but when I look at all the briar I've gone through.... it's surprising. I'm now in the second category that RD posted;
- Pipemaker is well-known and has a strong reputation for reliable high quality, a recognisable style, perhaps a signature shape or two, is collected and sought after by some buyers, and gets talked about on forums like this - $250 to $350

I never EVER thought I'd get that far doing this. Never in my wildest dreams. (Complacency sets in!)

What I've learned is that on one hand, you have to treat people fair (and I don't think I've ever over-priced my pipes, ever), and yet on the other hand, you can produce a brilliant pipe and if you under-price it, a whole segment of the collecting population will ignore it.

I have very literally taken pipes and listed them for what I think are ridiculously high sums, and almost every time, they sell really fast. REALLY fast. Now, these are good pipe, don't get me wrong. But either I underprice all my work all the time by hundreds of dollars (I really don't think so) or some percentage of the collecting crowd EXPECTS a good pipe to cost a certain amount. Likewise I've sent some really good pipes to people for 200 bucks and the comments I get back are "Yeah it's fine." where if I sell a pipe to someone for 375 almost always they rave about it. So expectation and perceived value actually work FOR the artisan carver some of the time. And a fellow would be foolish (as a businessman) to ignore that. I ignore it because I do this for fun - I'm another of these guys who makes outrageous daily sums of money simply because I have 15 years of experience, 10,000 in portable tools, and a truck and a trailer.

Perceived value and reputation. That's it. That's all. All you have to do is make about 1000 really wicked pipes that everyone likes and you've got it made. :twisted:

There's one other aspect of this whole conversation that has been basically ignored, and that is the relationship between carver and collector which can only exist in the solo artisan/buyer realm. If you want a Castello - wait around until one you like shows up. If you want a pipe 7" long with a certain finish.... just phone up Rad and get it made. People under-value this ability, and underestimate how difficult it is for the pipe maker to make a pipe "just so". It's far easier to work with a piece of briar and "get what you get". Making a pipe some particular way is really difficult and often involves total failures of the materials at hand and a restart from scratch. Not every block will produce any particular pipe. You can have your choice of stem material, texture, color.... that's all worth something. The comments of "I'd own more Castellos but I hate Lucite" are no more. Now you can own a very Castello-like pipe and have vulcanite on the business end.

Guys who buy from me over and over do so not because I'm so pretty, not even because my pipes are so vastly superior to anyone else's - it's that they can email me, tell me what they want, and I'll try to make it happen for them. The last guy who commissioned a pipe from me gave me a "something like this" approach on design and specified 17.5 mm at the button (which I think is too tall but it's your pipe bozo :twisted: ). I can do that. And because he likes a 17.5 mm fishtail, he's going to like the pipe. And if the stem falls out and the briar cracks.... all he has to do is phone me and say "Todd, there's an issue with this pipe." and I'll break the world to fix it for him, because I care that much about my pipes, his experience, and my reputation. You know who I farm out my warranty work to? No one.

So I encourage you all to experience this end of the pipe-smoking, er, experience. Find a carver whose work you like at a price you like, get a pipe from him, smoke the hell out of it, offer the maker some criticism, give him the good the bad and the ugly, and find out how much fun it is to know a carver, how special it can be for both parties to form that bond. It enhances the experience for everyone.

Dammit, I've convinced. Prices just went up. :elephant:

 

[Anonymous]

.

 

[monbla256]

Well put Dutch!

 

[Anonymous]

OK. Moving along then.

Pipes are not a hobby. Pipes, by 2013, have become an obsession. First off, deal with that. Nobody in his right mind NEEDS 80 + pipes and 50 + pounds of tobacco in storage unless he's genuinely convinced they're going to be outlawed/taxed out of existence, and he's SURE he's not going to lose interest in the whole thing as casually as he got interested in them by contagion -- seeing other guys here tripped out (here or somewhere else) and joining the parade on impulse.

Second : relatively few people buy expensive pipes (new or old) because they're great pipes. They mostly buy them to affiliate with a trip.

Imagine the most beautiful pipe you've ever seen. Perfect size, shape, grain, everything about it. The only thing it has stamped on it is "Genuine Imported Briar." How high are you willing to go for it, assuming you even go at all ? How likely is it to be on your "A team" if you get it ?

Same pipe. Now it's a Pre-Trans Barling. Pristine. Different story, huh ? Add "TVF" = add $$$. Add "YOW" = add more $$$. Add "EXEL = add even more $$$. Make that "EXELEXEL" = add $$$$. Add "From the estate of ______ (big deal in the pipe world)." $$$$$$$$$$$.

Same basic trip with new artisan pipes. (The shrewd ones have this figured out) now, it's still reputation & buzz, and stampings. If it's a "Castello, is it "only" a Castello," or is it a "Collection ?" People MAY not buy Castello Fiamattas because they're Fiamattas, but they show no hesitation in letting people know they are Fiamattas. A Fiamatta is just a better pipe than a mere Collection. Even though everybody knows they grade them so erratically that maybe a quarter of both could be on the other category depending on the day and the mood.

In line with this, to not a few, pipes are accoutrements. And the name of the game is profiling. "I only ________ (smoke/wear/eat/drink/drive/copulate with) the good stuff."

How many people have paid a lot of money (relative to income) for pipes that are bizarre to the point of being smokeable only in theory because other people they looked up to were hyping them ? And happy to show them off.

That's probably enough for one screed.

:face:
BOZO

 

[Zeno Marx]

What I've learned is that on one hand, you have to treat people fair (and I don't think I've ever over-priced my pipes, ever), and yet on the other hand, you can produce a brilliant pipe and if you under-price it, a whole segment of the collecting population will ignore it.

I used to run a small record label, so I still watch the private music business. Several years ago, there was a movement to price CDs at $5. They cost $1 or less to manufacture, so even at $5, there was more profit than from selling a vinyl LP. A few labels dropped their prices because they could. Guess the outcome? Those CDs sat. Nobody would go near them. The music must not be as good, correct? The band must not be as talented, correct? Next album from the same band with the same notoriety and style, price it at the normal $12. Brisk, common sales numbers followed. With the new listeners to that album, they still wouldn't chance buying that previous album at $5. It wasn't considered a better value. It was assumed to be junk. I'm sure this kind of consumer mentality can be found all over the place. I'm not sure what we can extrapolate from this phenomenon. I do feel there is a lot in "you get what you pay for", especially in 2013, but it also defies market health in ways.

 

[Anonymous]

I take that as an agreement with a nice illustrative example.

:face:

 

[cigrmaster]

Yak, I will respectfully disagree with a couple of your points. I believe that anyone who is not loading up their cellars for the coming price increases is in denial of the facts confronting them. It is not a matter of if, but when these increases will take place across every state. Already here in Florida we have an 85% wholesale tax on pipe tobacco which makes a 9 dollar tin 23 at my local b/m. Now when the internet tax bill gets passed and the internet sellers have to charge my state tax, game over. There are already states that do not allow pipe tobacco to be shipped into their states from any on line source such as Washington state. If I want to smoke my favorites for the next 25 years, I have to buy now and make sure I have enough. I am also convinced that when prices increase across the board, you will see many blends disappear and I will be prepared for that as well.

Second : relatively people buy expensive pipes (new or old) because they're great pipes. They mostly buy them to affiliate with a trip.

Imagine the most beautiful pipe you've ever seen. Perfect size, shape, grain, everything about it. The only thing it has stamped on it is "Genuine Imported Briar." How high are you willing to go for it, assuming you even go at all ? How likely is it to be on your "A team" if you get it ?

I buy Rad Davis pipes for example not to " affiliate to a trip" but because in my experience they give me the best smoking experience I have ever had with any artisan or factory. Now I do only buy his sandblasted ones because as the old saying goes you cannot smoke grain, and a sandblasted pipe in my experience smokes as well as a smooth. If I were to see a beautiful, perfectly sized, perfect grain pipe that had no name, I would not buy it because looks mean nothing to me, quality construction, hand made stems that fit my mouth to perfection and knowing an artisans work is what is important to me. I have had enough experience with many different factories and artisans to know what I like in a pipe and it doesn't matter to me if someone else thinks my pipes are good or not, it only matters that I like them. I think there are many people out there that are just like me that have learned what they like in a factory or artisan pipe. Some people love their Castello's for their open draw and the way they smoke, granted a Sea Rock will smoke the same as a Fiamatta, but I would not look down on someone because they love to look at spectacular grain , others love their Dunhill's for their classic shapes and the history they have. So in conclusion, yes there may be people who are just buying a name, but there are probably more smokers who know exactly why they collect the names they do.

 

[Kyle Weiss]

I have $5 pipes that smoke well, and cheap pipes that I bought on a memorable occasion. The rest are gifts from my many brothers here, and I feel like I am hanging out with my friends every time I see them. Hell, I bought three from Todd Harris, who is an artisan, I got a great deal on them, they smoke wonderful AND he's a friend of mine now! In any case, all good deals, memory or connection with friends.

Maybe for some their pipes smoke Pavlovian because they spent money on it, and have merely convinced themselves. Maybe I do the same because they've weaseled into my sentimental side.

If that's the case, and we can make them smoke good, regardless of our habits or how the pipe is "driven" once you get in the seat, we're enjoying them. $5, $500, $5000. The cost of something, high or low, does not diminish any personal worth, and that is something very hard for other people to understand.

The only thing that really can make my experience less with any of my pipes is Lakeland ghosting. :lol: But that's solvable.

 

[RD]

I'm now in the second category that RD posted;
- Pipemaker is well-known and has a strong reputation for reliable high quality, a recognisable style, perhaps a signature shape or two, is collected and sought after by some buyers, and gets talked about on forums like this - $250 to $350

Sas, it was interesting to hear all of your thoughts about this and I'm glad if some of my comments resonated with you. For what it's worth, for me personally, the pipemakers in that bracket are the ones I tend to care about the most. I bet the pipes in this bracket are often the ones that are most often well-smoked but also well looked after. That's how I view things, anyway. I think you're right to be proud of the place you've earned in the industry.

I think your point about the pipes you occasionally price higher being faster sellers does not indicate that you underprice, or that buyers are inversely price-sensitive. I think it's that you have a strong following for what you do and people trust you and know what they will get for the money. Unless proved otherwise people will assume the same price/value equation holds for all of your pipes, so a higher-priced pipe must be so because you saw something special about it. And a particular pipe that a trusted maker has singled-out like this is going to attract interest. After all, nobody knows more about what makes a great pipe than a great pipemaker. You're right, though, that the feedback from the buyer will be influenced by what they believe you thought about the pipe.

You made other comments about the importance of the relationship between the pipemaker and customer. As a buyer I couldn't agree more. Getting to know the pipemaker and learning something more about the maker of your pipe or the inspiration behind it is a huge value-add. It makes the pipe more personal and prized when there is some story or personal connection behind it. This is something many pipemakers do very well and I can't think of another industry where you can build this kind of relationship with someone you consider to be among the very best in the world at what they do. And, perhaps because nobody makes millions in this industry, pipemakers tend to be really approachable, generous people. Perhaps even you, Sas.

 

[pepesdad1]

Briarsmiths local 1, that's how we roll..
Where do we sign up?

 

[Anonymous]

A couple points I found worth pondering --

1) Cribbed from another board :

[F]olks identify with their possessions. In the guitar world, there are many who simply wouldn't "wear" a cheap Epiphone when they could sport a more prestigious Gibson, even if the Epi was a superior instrument. Same with pipes . . . We see ourselves as an extension of our stuff.

2) Cribbed from William Blake, who wrote it in the margin of one of his sketchbooks :

The difference between a great artist and a mediocre artist is that whereas the mediocre artist seems to copy a great deal, the great artist really does copy a great deal.

:face:

 

[Sasquatch]

This explains why all the solos I play on my actual Gibson brand Les Paul sound like Tony Iommi having a stroke.

 

[dshpipes]

2) Cribbed from William Blake, who wrote it in the margin of one of his sketchbooks :

The difference between a great artist and a mediocre artist is that whereas the mediocre artist seems to copy a great deal, the great artist really does copy a great deal.

:face:

A great theatre artist once told me, "Good artists borrow. Great artists steal."

Looks like he stole that from William Blake. :lol:

 

[Zeno Marx]

This explains why all the solos I play on my actual Gibson brand Les Paul sound like Tony Iommi having a stroke.

If accurate, I'd love to hear that.

 

[Vito]

...A great theatre artist once told me, "Good artists borrow. Great artists steal.

Looks like he stole that from William Blake. :lol: "

I must respectfully take exception. Blake didn't say "steal". He said "copy". And I doubt he was referring to outright theft or plagiarism, wherein the thief has little or no originality of his own and purloins the work of others without any credit or acknowledgment.

Blake was hardly that. He was a true original, and he knew it...although, as with many great originals, in his own lifetime his work did not receive the recognition it now has (and greatly deserves). He was a great artist who was inspired by others. He was not a thief.

Anyhow, I don’t believe that great artists steal. I have known personally a few great artists (by which I mean they are world-renowned), and they are NOT thieves. The very idea is disgusting and morally reprehensible to me, and it would be to them too. In my opinion, anyone who says it, does it, and is actually proud of it is a moral degenerate. I would be ashamed to own a work of theft by such a moral coward :x

Ah, well…perhaps that just reveals my ignorance of the way it works in the world of art in general, which might be full of disgusting people and morally degenerate thieves, and not at all characterized by the few decent artists I know who have good character. I admit I wouldn’t know about the art world in general.

But I do know that it works differently in science, where the ideological debt that great scientists owe to those who have inspired them and upon whose work they build is fully acknowledged, usually with great gratitude. That spirit is typified by the following quotation:

If I have seen farther than others, it is because I have stood on the shoulders of giants.

As far as pipemaking goes, it has been my experience that most pipemakers freely and gratefully acknowledge their debt to others whose work they emulate, and those upon whose shoulders they stand. They don't "steal" anything.

:joker:

 

[Kyle Weiss]

"To build-upon." Not a bad notion. Stealing implies things have hit a ceiling, and can go no further.

 

[Vito]

"To build-upon." Not a bad notion. Stealing implies things have hit a ceiling, and can go no further.

Just so, Kyle. And the notion that taking inspiration from others' work somehow constitutes stealing is too often used as a justification for real stealing, as in, "Well, everyone does it."

No...everyone doesn't do it. Even rock 'n' roll hippies don't do it. They PAY credit where it's due.

Case in point:

They're not thieves. A thief pays nothing.

We all take inspiration from others. If I've created something new (and I have), my creativity in that work is not in any way diminished by the fact that I have built upon the work of others. I'm grateful to those who inspire me, regardless of whether they're living or dead. It takes nothing away from me to acknowledge their influence.

I suspect that human civilization would be a far better place to live if its members were more focused on gratitude for the value they receive from others and less focused on glorifying theft.

</soapbox>